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KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#69851: Dec 11th 2022 at 10:17:44 PM

Re: Amy talk

I get the feeling a lot of people don't like Amy's character because they don't really understand her relationship with Sonic. Feels like people look at her like she's some dumb groupie simping over a cool famous dude that doesn't care about her. The thing is, Amy doesn't just like Sonic for no particular reason and just follow him around to be near him. Amy admires Sonic for all his good qualities, and she thinks that if she can become stronger and keep up him then he'll view her as his equal and feel the same way about her.

If you think about it, all of Sonic core three friends - Tails, Knuckles, and Amy - share a similar aspect in that Sonic is a driving motivation for them to better themselves. Tails looks up to Sonic and betters himself so he can be as cool as Sonic some day. Knuckles thinks of himself like he's the hero of the story, and so he views Sonic as a rival he needs to surpass to live up to that. And Amy betters herself to no longer be just a passive, normal girl, so Sonic will see her in a similar light that she sees him in.

If you start taking these aspects away to make each character more independent from Sonic, you start to make the group no longer hold the same meaning. It's no longer "the story about Sonic and his allies who are changed for the better by his presence", it's instead "the story about a bunch of friends who are independently heroic for separate reasons, and Sonic is nominally the main one just because."

And I think this also ties into an idea I could go into, which that I suspect a lot of writers don't understand that Sonic isn't really supposed to have character flaws - and that's not a bad thing.

Re: story talk

Story and gameplay in video games aren't totally separate entities that don't touch. The two affect and inform one another, and both are heavily affected by presentation-related aspects like visuals and audio. Even from a purely storytelling perspective, one doesn't get the same experience from just watching the cutscenes of game as they would playing the game themself.

It's all a part of the overall experience and can't really be judged in complete isolation in my mind. While it's true that a game having bad controls or level design can kill the experience enough that good writing can't save it, the opposite can be true as well. A bad story will drag down the experience of what would otherwise be an okay game, and a good story give one the engagement to naturally push through what would otherwise be a mediocre game.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69852: Dec 11th 2022 at 10:23:50 PM

In a Sonic game, outside of the Storybook games and Forces...you would get the same experience just watching cutscenes.

For the story.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69853: Dec 12th 2022 at 2:44:58 AM

I get the feeling a lot of people don't like Amy's character because they don't really understand her relationship with Sonic. Feels like people look at her like she's some dumb groupie simping over a cool famous dude that doesn't care about her. The thing is, Amy doesn't just like Sonic for no particular reason and just follow him around to be near him. Amy admires Sonic for all his good qualities, and she thinks that if she can become stronger and keep up him then he'll view her as his equal and feel the same way about her.

If you think about it, all of Sonic core three friends - Tails, Knuckles, and Amy - share a similar aspect in that Sonic is a driving motivation for them to better themselves. Tails looks up to Sonic and betters himself so he can be as cool as Sonic some day. Knuckles thinks of himself like he's the hero of the story, and so he views Sonic as a rival he needs to surpass to live up to that. And Amy betters herself to no longer be just a passive, normal girl, so Sonic will see her in a similar light that she sees him in.

If you start taking these aspects away to make each character more independent from Sonic, you start to make the group no longer hold the same meaning. It's no longer "the story about Sonic and his allies who are changed for the better by his presence", it's instead "the story about a bunch of friends who are independently heroic for separate reasons, and Sonic is nominally the main one just because."

And I think this also ties into an idea I could go into, which that I suspect a lot of writers don't understand that Sonic isn't really supposed to have character flaws - and that's not a bad thing.

While this might be true in theory, in practice it essentially translates to Sonic being the only who can actually accomplish anything of importance most of the time.

Can't exactly blame people for wanting the characters to strike on their own as opposed to being stuck in Sonic's shadow.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#69854: Dec 12th 2022 at 3:13:37 AM

[up]Moreover, the notion that Sonic is not supposed to have flaws is a sticking point for some fans who aren't necessarily going to mind (and in some cases even prefer) stories where say his overconfidence gets him into trouble. Adaptation wise, its not a surprise that various TV shows/films have largely steered away from the flawless force of nature esqe interpretation given the practical difficulties of doing that outside a video game.

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#69855: Dec 12th 2022 at 3:15:36 AM

And even in Frontiers showed Sonic at his most vulnerable.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#69856: Dec 12th 2022 at 3:33:17 AM

Speaking of, in Sonic Prime his big character flaw is that Sonic has an inability to listen to his friends' warnings and fears, and chooses to heroically but impulsively speed ahead instead.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69857: Dec 12th 2022 at 3:43:54 AM

Id say do what works for the medium and the story you're trying to tell as opposed to trying to trying to translate everything 1:1 from the games.

What works in a video game doesn't necessarily translate for a story and I feel like that's something a lot of fans cannot comprehend or accept. It either has to be "exactly" like the games or not.

While Sonic being a flawless paragon figure works when the story is about someone else but you're still playing primarily as Sonic, it doesn't quite work as well when Sonic is Out of Focus in his own series (Sonic X and Satam arguably)

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#69858: Dec 12th 2022 at 3:58:57 AM

Sat AM is an interesting case where the characterization of Sonic in vogue at the time (cocky and impulsive show-off) made the creators feel the need to create Sally as the yin to his yang to effectively have a balance. Him being cool essentially trumped the idea of him as a leader or as that much of an inspiration to others (outside maybe to Tails).

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69859: Dec 12th 2022 at 4:14:02 AM

That's a very Western idea in general it seems like. That someone who is cocky and impulsive needs someone to reign them in so to speak (i.e. Tony Stark) so that they don't self-destruct.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#69860: Dec 12th 2022 at 4:20:23 AM

I think that's life in general.

And even in Frontiers showed Sonic at his most vulnerable.

Legit watched Sonic get punted through a stone pillar by the first boss. I sat there with my jaw on the floor for 15 seconds.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#69861: Dec 12th 2022 at 4:57:00 AM

Yea but that's not how Sonic is usually portrayed in the Eastern written stories.

Sonic is cocky sure, but its never actually affected anything he can do. He's just that good, hence why he serves as an inspiration to others.

So that's why a lot of fans who grew up on the more Western adaptations tend to find Sonic "boring" in the games due to never having to face any personal consequences for his actions when that's not the point of the character.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 12th 2022 at 7:57:41 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#69862: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:04:41 AM

There was the time in Lost World when he kicked the conch shell away and enabled the Zeti to hijack the plot.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#69863: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:05:47 AM

So that's why a lot of fans ... tend to find Sonic "boring" in the games due to [Sonic] never having to face any personal consequences for his actions when that's not the point of the character.

One, that in of itself is arguably a flaw of the character's writing.

Two, this reminds me of Son Goku from Dragonball and how he was described in the Dragonball thread once upon a time. Dub Goku was portrayed as a Saiyan Jesus Christ, wholesome and insightful and a destined hero. Japanese OG Goku was just a guy who liked to fight. Thus when Super came out Goku's increased addiction to getting punched in the face came off as a jarring lack of intelligence. Whereas some people argued that OG Goku was always like that, never interested in saving the world and moreso heroic-adjacent because his primary hobby and family members usually end up in the villain's lap/path.

And while I get it and even admire Goku as being an unconventional protagonist Blood Knight, the characterization of him as a more heroic figure is understandably well received/nostalgic for many.

Albeit, I don't know any examples of Sonic being all that different between the Japanese and Western versions. I liked SATAM and Archie but both of those Western depictions had him dealing with the consequences of his actions.

MightyKombat I am he as you are he as you are me and we are a from in mai mouffff (Ten years in the joint)
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#69864: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:16:35 AM

What about Fleetway and IDW Sonic?

Are explosions science?
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#69865: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:26:24 AM

From what little I know of him Fleetway Sonic was a jerk and IDW Sonic was the first I've heard of being "mandated" to "never ever lose or show emotion."

Despite that IDW had a story where Sonic was slowly succumbing to a viral infection and actually lamenting that he didn't kill his mortal enemy/that his mortal enemy refused to change.

Which is way more character depth than Sonic's had in games that weren't Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Lost World, or Sonic Frontiers.

Edited by FOFD on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:29:43 AM

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#69866: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:31:42 AM

IDW's characterization of Sonic as someone actively trying to reform his enemies feels a little forced to me at times, because on the occasion villains are reformed (or antagonists see the error of their ways) he usually lets them realize it for themselves, like Shadow's scenario in Sonic Battle.

(For most of Sonic Battle, Shadow is bent on destroying Emerl, with Sonic protecting the robot (who he had befriended) being his main obstacle. Then during the second to last story, to Shadow's surprise, Sonic simply lets him take Emerl with him a few moments after he (Shadow) reaffirmed that he was going to destroy the robot. It then turns that after seeing how similar he and Emerl are, Shadow sympathizes with him and chooses to help him rather than destroy him. Sonic had seen all of this development coming and had Emerl go with Shadow to make it happen.)

The Protomen enhanced my life.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69867: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:35:36 AM

[up][up]Sonic's not been emotionless...what?

Sonic's not allowed to show emotion...crying on screen.

Strong emotion.

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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#69868: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:41:14 AM

[up] (2) I think its just a difference in the circumstances.

In IDW Sonic is pleading with Eggman because Starline reverted his Mr. Tinker personality, and by this point Eggman is causing an Apocalypse How. I don't think IDW Sonic's tried to redeem anyone else?

Eggman's never been in a position of redemption and the IDW Comics are coming at the story from a point of "we've done this so many times now" compared to Sonic Battle which is still kind of "in the thick of Eggman's villainy sometime after Sonic Adventure 2."

So IDW Sonic, pushed to his mental limit by the Metal Virus and upset with Eggman for turning, tries to make him go back. Plus Sonic inadvertently caused this by not listening to Shadow. Sonic believed Eggman changed this time. He did. It was just an unfortunate turn of events. IIRC there's even a blink or you'll miss it moment of Eggman briefly gazing as if he misses being Mr. Tinker before he doubles down on being evil.

Sonic really guilts himself here because Shadow wanted to just take Eggman out and Sonic banked on the doctor being done for good this time. That's not a situation Sonic finds himself in often and its fascinating.

Edited by FOFD on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:45:11 AM

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#69869: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:45:22 AM

[up] It's less that moment specifically and the other times he's tried it after Eggman refuses, with the most recent moments being trying and failing to convert Metal Sonic.

I found the Mr. Tinker part affecting for the same reasons—we don't often see Sonic like that.

Edited by lalalei2001 on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:46:01 AM

The Protomen enhanced my life.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#69871: Dec 12th 2022 at 5:53:58 AM

People think it's out of character for Sonic to do this thing because Sonic "always goes for the kill"...

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69872: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:07:55 AM

I feel its more Sonic, at least as far as the games are concerned, is kind of a "come what, come may" personality.

He takes everything head on and accepts things as they are; if you're a villain bent on destroying or conquering everything, he'll stop you.

If you're a rival looking to get one up over him, he'll take you on anytime or anywhere.

And if you're a former villain looking to reform, he'll support you.

Its a very Stock Shōnen Hero trait where Sonic is more like a force of nature who just goes with the flow no matter what happens.

Which is why it's jarring when adaptations play up some of these traits in order to give him flaws so that he can "develop". Because Sonic isn't a character that's designed to be flawed, but the assumption many people make is if a character isn't flawed in some shape or form, then they're "boring".

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
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#69873: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:09:27 AM

I'll recap.

Sonic has tried three times to reform his villains in IDW. However, there is a lot of context to it.

Metal Sonic. Sonic sees him as an individual, not just any badnik. With Eggman gone and the empire in shambles, Sonic tried to convince Metal to give up his evil ways because there was no point in his struggle. Again, Metal had nowhere else to go and no one to serve, and Sonic at the moment (and this is the important part) didn't know of Starline. Word of God even states that, if Metal found Tinker, he would be unable to do anything as he is programmed to obey Tinker, and Tinker is not a bad guy.

And even then, Mecha Sonic in Scrapnik shows that Sonic is vindicated, as Mecha is essentially what Metal Sonic could be.

Eggman. Sonic never forgave Eggman, he forgave Mr. Tinker who was genuinely innocent. Shadow and Espio are mad at Sonic, and for a moment Sonic was pissed off and tried to reason with the doctor. When he returned to the world, he left Eggman go as a loser, and was disappointed that their conflict would possibly never end. Sonic is confident enough he can stop Eggman every time, and this is in-character for him. The biggest nonsense we ever got from this is a bunch of weirdos saying Sonic should kill the doctor, because the Doctor has Joker Inmunity.

Surge. Sonic didn't know jack-shit about Surge, and he simply told her "I done this song and dance before, I'm giving you a chance to be free and explore to world, otherwise if you try to hurt people I'll stop you." Since Surge despises both Sonic and the world due to her condition, she instead went to kill him just because.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#69874: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:10:15 AM

Luffy hasn't really changed in 25 years and is still engaging. Goku is not supposed to change much...

You can balance that with developing characters and have all of them be engaging.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#69875: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:12:33 AM

Well that's what the series was doing until people got mad and they stopped lol.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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