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diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#68501: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:17:47 AM

Lots of 7's and 8's, which is nice to see.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#68502: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:22:36 AM

> Who the hell pissed in Digital Trends's Cheerios? [lol]

I'm blaming Sonic

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68504: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:39:09 AM

This is a first try game - much like Unleashed, I expect to see a lot of missteps as the devs aren't sure yet how X is going to work whether Y will mesh well with Z. But that's fine. Being on the upper side of average is perfect for a first try game.

As long as two things happen: Sonic Team continues to build on the mechanical concept, and they don't instead do the "it wasn't perfect, so let's just throw it out!" reaction (again).

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68505: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:45:14 AM

I expect to see a lot of missteps as the devs aren't sure yet how X is going to work whether Y will mesh well with Z

They had half a decade to figure all of this out, and this was the result. I genuinely think this is the best Sonic Team can do when it comes to Sonic.

Which...is serviceable.

Mania is the only time Sonic will ever hit the high scores huh.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MisterZygarde64 Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth from New Mobotropolis, Mushroom Kingdom Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth
#68506: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:47:42 AM

[up][up]I’m hoping that Sonic Team has become aware that people are now noticing that they’re preferring to throw things away rather than try to improve on it.

Edited by MisterZygarde64 on Nov 7th 2022 at 7:47:58 AM

Check out Rogues Gallery Transplant: The Game
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#68507: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:48:35 AM

Its unlikely Sonic Team pays much attention to fans,most Dev teams don't

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#68508: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:50:47 AM

Reminder that God of War is coming this week, and Pokemon the next week. Sonic won't be the highlight of the month most likely.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68509: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:56:16 AM

Ain't that the truth.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#68510: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:57:43 AM

Come a leave your mark...

vandalize my heart...

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#68511: Nov 7th 2022 at 9:58:01 AM

The fact that Pokemon is coming is the worst part. If only God of War was coming, that wouldn't take away any of the child audience.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68512: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:11:59 AM

They had half a decade to figure all of this out, and this was the result. I genuinely think this is the best Sonic Team can do when it comes to Sonic.

Past history would make this unlikely.

Unleashed wasn't the best they could do with the Boost genre by a long shot. Likewise, the later Adventure games were a marked improvement from Adventure 1. Going all the way back to Sonic 1, which is an significantly worse game than everything else that came after it.

Unleashed in particular is a great example, because that was a very subpar game that arguably got saved by the fact that one half of it was a more visibly bad idea than the other, which distracted most of the consumers from the (arguably more problematic) flaws in the other half. Flaws they spent the next few games attempting to hammer out, resulting in general improvement.

The truth is that when you're foraying into a new style of design,you're not going to know how everything works immediately. You're going to make mis-steps or incorporate things that you think are going to work but then fall flat upon execution - and most importantly you're only going to get the majority of real feedback that allows you to improve upon the idea after you release it to the public no matter how long it took you to release the game. It's unrealistic to expect the very first attempt a developer makes at anything to be the best they could possibly do with that concept: it just doesn't work that way.

Sonic Team's issue has always been that they shift gears too easy, not that they just can't make good games: they do too many first tries, so many of their games are the typical mediocre initial attempts at a concept before they give it up and try another. But when they commit to a concept over several games they have always historically made visible improvement. They just need to commit.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 7th 2022 at 10:20:20 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#68513: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:16:38 AM

Also, wasn't a good portion of the development time spent on a concept that ultimately got thrown out altogether? Which makes the actual time spent on Frontiers a good deal less.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#68514: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:16:44 AM

Later Adventure games...

Is SA2 really that much of an improvement outside of any technical aspects?

It's definitely more focused, so there's that.

Edited by randomness4 on Nov 7th 2022 at 1:16:54 PM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#68515: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:17:18 AM

I keep going back to SA2 for the Chao Garden... I remember thinking it was going to be a Sonic mainstay and was surprised Heroes didn't have one.

Edited by lalalei2001 on Nov 7th 2022 at 1:17:26 PM

The Protomen enhanced my life.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68516: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:18:43 AM

[up][up] Yes. The most obvious being that the level design and how the characters interface with those levels is improved in SA 2 vs SA 1 (even if occasionally too linear), which makes it clear they re-examined how the environment should work with the controls the player is given.

SA 2 isn't perfect, but it is much better from a mechanical standpoint than its predecessor. (And this is someone who prefers SA 1 to SA 2 talking).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 7th 2022 at 10:22:14 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68517: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:24:17 AM

The development cycles between the Boost games is also much shorter; 1-2 years between all of them.

Think back to how many compromises they had to make when they made Colors and Generations. They're definitely improved, but they're also somewhat stripped down from what Unleashed established too in terms of level design and mechanics. You have to also consider the climate at the time too; a Sonic game of even decent quality was considered revolutionary back then cuz the stigma of 06 was relatively fresh.

They don't have that luxury anymore as the reputation of the series is in a better place now than it was back then...relatively speaking.

The games after Sonic Adventure gradually got worse so I don't get that comparison.

I'm not even saying I wanted a 10/10 game that's gonna blow me away, I knew what I was getting with Frontiers and that's exactly what I got.

If they make any "improvements" its most likely gonna be how Adventure 2 and Colors did it; shrink the scope of the game and focus on the parts that people liked.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Nov 7th 2022 at 1:25:36 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68518: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:26:34 AM

But like I explained, long design times don't ensure perfect product (not to mention ShinyCottonCandy's not above). Not when user feedback is one of the most important things towards creating a better product, and you don't get that until after the game is released.

If anything, with how game design, company shifts and the passage of video game technology works, longer design times makes things harder, not easier. If a game takes a long time to make, it probably means they had to start over a lot or got stalled often and so on and so forth: a longer design cycle is more often a sign of haphazard development than focused development.

The games after Sonic Adventure gradually got worse so I don't get that comparison.

Ehh...

Again, I prefer SA 1 to any of the games that came after it, but I wouldn't call it better than the others. I would call it more creative. More ambitious. More interesting.

The difference is that SA 1 had loads more content in it, all of which was less refined. The later games had much less breadth of content but more focused, trading refinement with simplicity and ultimately less range of options.

I prefer that creativity (I'd argue Sky Deck is the best level in any 3D Sonic game ever), but I'd be hard pressed to call any specific thing SA 1 offered better than a later alternative on a technical level, except maybe years later when they started going off the rails.

You can see the same things in Unleashed. Unleashed has the best locations and concepts of the Boost era imo, some of the most interesting boss designs, and the most ambitious plot. But holy crap is the level design trash, playing through the game's controls frustrating and is it clear that the devs had no idea how to properly balance boost.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 7th 2022 at 10:38:23 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68519: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:42:16 AM

Sure, longer development times aren't indicative of quality; but consider that one of the main factors for why Sonic games tend to be the way they are is because of rushed development cycles and Sega breathing down their necks. Iizuka specifically had to ask Sega for more time for Frontiers. And they even said, they wanted high review scores for this one. Everything points to them wanting to blow it out of the park, and while 70% is much better than their usual output, it's not exactly gonna blow anyone either.

And personally speaking, I'd much rather a flawed game with a good idea than a "good" game that does just enough to get by. Sonic is a series that used to thrive on creativity and style, so it really annoys me when they sacrifice that just for something safe and inoffensive.

If I had to ask for something from a Frontiers sequel, assuming Sega actually gave them the resources for it, is a Sonic-like design for the open world and better incorporating the level design into said Open-world. But this is assuming they get the manpower to make that or we just get a stripped down version of this game in 2-3 years. Hard to know at this point.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68520: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:52:58 AM

Sure, longer development times aren't indicative of quality; but consider that one of the main factors for why Sonic games tend to be the way they are is because of rushed development cycles and Sega breathing down their necks.

Yes it is. But rushed development = bad doesn't mean long development = perfect. Being rushed and having a short design period are two different things, after all. And there are things that development won't be able to hammer out in an initial attempt no matter how long it takes (hence needing feedback to go further) that are unrelated to the problems that arise from being rushed - because rushing can happen at any design period length. It's the result of the time the developers allotted to accomplish certain parts of development being cut short, not the result of a short design period overall.

And personally speaking, I'd much rather a flawed game with a good idea than a "good" game that does just enough to get by.

That is the point I'm making, yes.

First tries that are still fun, good ideas should not be dismissed for not being perfect. And claiming that they're the limit to what are possible just because it's what's in front of you right now is missing how game design happens.

As long as Sonic Team continues to develop this idea and actually listens to the constructive feedback they receive, there's no reason to assume they won't do as they always do and improve across the next few attempts. We have more to fear of this game's sequel being less ambitious than we do the game's sequel being the same.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 7th 2022 at 10:57:22 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68521: Nov 7th 2022 at 10:57:28 AM

Welp, to end that end...

Yo Sonic Team, if you take out these boss fights in the next game, I will kill you in your sleep. Cut anything, but leave those in this game.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
isbillyhere Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
#68523: Nov 7th 2022 at 12:51:39 PM

man, you guys are depressing, i’m out

ImmaLelouch (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#68524: Nov 7th 2022 at 12:58:50 PM

If you think this is depressing, gamefaqs and 4chan is even worse.

ImmaLelouch (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#68525: Nov 7th 2022 at 1:01:39 PM

Sonic Frontiers combo video by Swillo.


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