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Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68201: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:12:19 AM

The reputation was already pretty bad during 3D due to tons of awkward controls in general. 06 was just the final game that was a bit worse than the others overall(fyi, the general average score is more in the 40's, not somewhere like in the 30's or 20's. It's been rated higher than multiple games because it's not a horrid port like Sonic the Hedgehog GENESIS(it's not unplayable, though less playable than 06, honestly, but it has some major issues too), and actually is memorable for more than its bugs/glitches/exploits compared to Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric(the only reason ROL's problems are memorable is that even the TV Show took some of them and made them into an actual outright joke-like meme. Albeit, a one-off meme).

Some issues with the 3 D games leading up to 06 

IMO, Sonic Unleashed was mediocre at best in HD. It might've been fine if it didn't have the horrid Tails Stages, where you can easily die if you don't press the buttons just right. This shows up as well on Eggmanland in said version too, enough times where it can kill you, not just make you take a longer route. And it even made it a marathon level instead of splitting it up a tad so it's less of a royal pain. At most? It looked nicer.

Wii version was mostly better, by having no bad gameplay types, while also properly making sure the stages are mixed up so no gameplay type is overwhelming. It also downplayed the quick time events massively, instantly improving the game's flow. The Werehog stages were more, but they also honestly were better designed stages anyway due to not being able to run into enemies super easily. The only honest downside I felt the game ever had was "too much collecting", and that's it.

As for why I treat the Werehog is just plain better as regular Sonic; the stages flow way better. You don't have to deal with bullshit running into enemies over and over again because you barely can control yourself. The only actual problem I ever had with the Werehog was how the battle parts of the stage just... kind of stop the flow of the game to some degree, but it's a slower platformer, so it's more tedious than truly slowing you down. It's nothing like the random puzzles in Adventure 1(overworld aside) where Sonic has to stop to charge up for the Light Dash. To say the least, I'm so glad it was properly fixed in Adventure 2. Not everything was, though.

So I'm going to agree the Wii version is a superior product because it cut out the outright bad portions and focused more on stage design overall, including balancing them better in more than one way. HD version's only strength, to be honest, is... being in HD. Which means little cause I play games for gameplay, not graphics.

Shadow?
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#68202: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:15:45 AM

Funny thing is, Spyro Enter the Dragonfly is a 2002 game that, compared to the Insomniac trilogy, is far, FAR more of an utter mess than 06 is compared to the Adventure games. Or, Crash Wrath of Cortex, it is an unoptimized and clunky attempt at making another Crash 3.

But those went by with no fanfare. Their immediate followers tried something different, and didn't really do much, and the franchises pretty much stopped until they got remasters of the PSX games these last few years.

Sonic, meanwhile, kept going.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#68203: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:27:39 AM

You don't have to deal with bullshit running into enemies over and over again because you barely can control yourself.

I can only speak for myself, but I never had a problem in that area.

Conversely, the slow platforming of the werehog is the exact opposite of what I want when I play a Sonic game.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Oct 31st 2022 at 2:29:01 PM

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diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#68204: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:30:40 AM

And then there's me, who likes both the day and night stages.

This is the dilemma, isn't it?

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#68205: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:32:18 AM

You and me both.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#68206: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:35:01 AM

At the very least, the tightrope sections really should have gone.

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MisterZygarde64 Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth from New Mobotropolis, Mushroom Kingdom Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth
#68207: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:35:29 AM

[up][up][up][up] Personally I think it'd have been cool if while daytime Sonic stages had the boost gameplay while night time was Sonic's gameplay style from Adventure and 02 possibly with some combat elements. I could imagine Sonic as a werehog using his stretchy arms to do a homing attack

Edited by MisterZygarde64 on Oct 31st 2022 at 8:35:45 AM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#68208: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:36:07 AM

> Sonic, meanwhile, kept going.

he's a speedster,they don't slow down unless someone steals his sneakers

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68209: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:52:09 AM

I never found a single good day stage in the game(I loved the concept of them... till I played them and found out they were not very fun for me). It super breaks the flow when the enemies are way too rampant to dodge. It somehow got worse in Colors. Generations was the first one to properly tone down the enemies and make the stages fun to use. Even in the weaker 3DS version(where honestly only the bosses were a bit annoying). This same issue is present in the Sonic Advance series(though to a lesser degree) by relying more on the Boost than actual level design and enemy placement. The boost is cool. But it's a complete crutch mechanic in Unleashed instead of a useful tool.

Werehog was a consistent speed. So no flow could be broken(now yes, the battle portions were way too long and tedious. But they didn't break the flow to go into. The most that happens is the music change, but that's it). Also why I prefer it, due to way better balance in that regard. Speed is meaningless if the controls don't work very well, or the stages are built so you're likely to get hit. The fact you need to rely outright on a special dash ring thing that makes you invincible means they weren't trying to balance the stages, but ignored it too hard to make a mechanic work. It's basically an excuse instead of better playtesting and stage design.

I could get more into the series after 06 with Generations(gave up due to the bad 3DS version I tried), and moreso Lost World(which the parkour felt really good and wasn't a bad crutch like the Boost was in Unleashed's case. Worth noting the boost is much nicer in how the Advance games did it, because it wasn't used as a crutch for poor level design, but actually a bonus for having fun, and respectively can be useful depending the situation and game), which had kind of a bad mix of platforming for Sonic(his normal stages were too slow, without the logical justification of the Werehog being slower) and the various Mach Speed/fixed scrolling were too fast, regardless of the literal Mach Speed or the rather terribad single Snowboarding section(Snowboarding was slightly easier, to give credit).

By the time of Generations, they also stopped using extreme speed and boost as a combination to justify bad level design and enemy placements. I mean, they had a similar issue way back in Shadow, yet it somehow let you play while having a harder time getting hit, because it made it clear that "going fast" was not the only solution to a stage anyway, creating dynamic gameplay that allowed for better missions and stages. Not every stage is good, nor are some missions, but the general platforming stages alone flowed pretty damn well despite Shadow going only faster than the Werehog, but nothing like the Day Stages' high speeds. As I've said a long time before, taking Mach Speed and only dumbing it down a little doesn't account for its issues. Which is "a massive lack of control". Unleashed's only good thing it did about that was giving you a sidestep option, but forgetting to properly base the stages around this while not throwing too many enemies at once.

Either way, the fact the Wii version decided to not have super long stages and splits more up is a godsend as is. Final stage or not, Eggmanland being otherwise 15+ minutes, as the wiki puts it, respectively(and I've seen it take over 40 minutes recently. Mind you, this wouldn't be reduced much even with the deaths removed, which is saying a bit of how overly ridiculous it is).

...Oh, whoops. I forgot that medal collecting was better in the Wii version. Though I think you needed more? I don't remember all the details. Either way, I honestly still found the Wii version better since it had a clearer balance while toning down the worst of the QTE stuff. QTE isn't necessarily bad, during boss fights, but it's so easy to die in the Tails stages form it alone, along with a few too many during some stages, and to paraphrase; "It will rip you a new one."

Shadow?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68210: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:54:27 AM

Man. IGN is really dedicated to being the Sonic fanbase's archenemy, huh?

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#68211: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:56:51 AM

Mind you, this wouldn't be reduced much even with the deaths removed, which is saying a bit of how overly ridiculous it is

Wish I could pull up my Eggmanland Hot Dog run challenge time to have my own reference point.

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Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68212: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:01:06 PM

[up] It's safe to say it's just a crazy stage. Wii version(note I have yet to see the PS 2 or 3 versions in action) at least does reduce it to more acts to somewhat alleviate the length. Though YMMV if you prefer the longer version(which at least uses the ability to switch from Sonic to Werehog and back more than once as a proper mechanic beyond finding a level or some overworld explanation in general, so that's cool~).

[up][up] I mean, as problematic as 06 was, most of the characters were actually given good playstyles, while the Werehog is given way more heat than it deserves, and the Tail Stages are outright love it or hate it. That's 3 playstyles. Coupled with 06 having no super long areas, and the mach speed sections are not nearly as rampant, and you'll notice that they both have a different balance of stage styles, with 06 being... surprisingly better about it overall. Not without its problems, but no perfect Sonic game exists, anyway. XD

Edited by Irene on Oct 31st 2022 at 2:04:06 PM

Shadow?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#68213: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:01:22 PM

[up][up][up]My brain removed fanbase and now I'm picturing a sonic game where Sonic's new enemy is a game review site

Edited by Ultimatum on Oct 31st 2022 at 7:01:36 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68214: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:03:50 PM

I'm retrospect, I'm mildly surprised that Sonic Boom didn't make a joke about Eggman buying a video game review company.

They did a gag where he bought a movie ticketing service, and another where he made his own video game, and tons about both caustic critics and caustic fan responses, so it seems like the kind of gag they would be fond of.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68215: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:05:15 PM

[up][up] Natural enemies we are.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#68216: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:06:06 PM

It's safe to say it's just a crazy stage.

Oh, I know that. I just would have liked to be reminded how long it took me to complete it deathless.

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Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68217: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:10:55 PM

Could be because he's practically portrayed as being a lot more bumbling in Boom whereas he still has comedy in the other games, but can be extremely effective and ruthless whenever he wants to be. So he's more comedy-based than people are looking for. Hell, the last time he was like that was Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, and even that show had him technically more deadly due to some of the stuff he pulls off to terrorize others. Sonic Boom is weird in that it's more comedy-based instead. So while he can be serious, they barely play it up. The games might be a bit better than the show was, though. In the show, they made it very clear he's still a citizen of the area and he's perfectly allowed to hang out with everyone as well. He actually goes shopping, etc. as normal. He and Sonic aren't actually overall enemies, and more have a fun rivalry dynamic in practice. Eggman still terrorizes people from time to time, but the only no-nonsense characterization is given to Metal Sonic(who doesn't talk) and Shadow(who isn't there to have a little fun with others, but just to be completely evil. He slightly has a better story to why he's mad, due to being used by Eggman to be an unwitting actor in a show. Unlike the games, he has some motivation for being mad).

More or less, Eggman in Boom(especially the show) is kind of like the Sonic X version, except with an actual family he loves and cares about, and is far less evil.

[up] I'm going to guess a few days to practice enough?

Edited by Irene on Oct 31st 2022 at 2:11:34 PM

Shadow?
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#68218: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:13:41 PM

[up]I mean, yeah, but mostly I care about the actual run time.

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Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68219: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:20:36 PM

Good luck finding your information. It's always fun having that "best time" moments.

Mine for any moment in a game is doing the Metal Mario fight in Super Smash Bros.(64) with Link on Very Easy in a whopping 10 seconds. It's not "impressive", but it was fun as hell to go ham on him. ...Which I do to anyone who dares to take away my Paper Fan item. evil grin

Shadow?
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#68220: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:25:24 PM

[up]Yeah, unfortunately, the system I played it on is with my parents and I do not know its current state. I'm sure the actual time is not particularly impressive; even the strictest time limit for that challenge has a massive buffer as if designed to take deaths into account despite the requirement being a deathless run (perhaps something changed in development), but I was still proud of it.

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diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#68221: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:40:52 PM

I hope the prices in Eggmanland are at least fair.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#68222: Oct 31st 2022 at 1:33:40 PM

for everyone but hedgehogs,where the price is DOUBLED.

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#68223: Oct 31st 2022 at 2:53:16 PM

Cue Shadow going manhunter on Eggman as a response.

Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#68224: Oct 31st 2022 at 4:30:56 PM

I know IGN is a group of people who come and go rather than an individual, but that IGN "shots fired" thing is pretty hypocritical given this is the group that made the memetic "Sonic was never good" and who, even when reviewing a game positively, always say shit like "this is the first good Sonic game since 06", Sonic fans dislike IGN because IGN was filled with people who just saw Sonic as a convenient punching bag post-06.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68225: Oct 31st 2022 at 4:44:44 PM

Nothing that video said was wrong; Sonic fans refuse to let comments go from employees that probably don't even work there anymore and blame the entire company for it.

Additionally, they care about negative comments from a group despite the fact that they were going to buy Frontiers anyway.

Whole thing is just dumb and I'm shocked if some IGN employees are tired of getting blamed for something someone else said.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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