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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68176: Oct 30th 2022 at 5:50:12 PM

Well I wouldn't go that far. Its the most popular show but that's it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68177: Oct 30th 2022 at 5:53:19 PM

Sonic X had the most seasons, quite a ton of development, and actually managed to show off both humans and anthros overall quite a bit. Albeit, the anthros took a back seat, even in Season 3, where not many new ones appeared, but there wasn't exactly a lot of named humans either, or for that matter, important ones. They also put G.U.N. in a better light from the start, with the whole Space Colony ARK thing being basically more led by a splinter group of much more horrible people(and not all members were either, as many were traumatized and had tons of regrets).

It also had lots of fun one-off random machines that Eggman made(I'm not sure if they'd count as Badniks as they're basically Bosses equivalently), while still having some smaller enemies available for others to fight(more clear Badniks). Besides that, using the Japanese name proper for the first time, adapting multiple Sonic games at once, showing how much Sonic cares about Amy while still being very uncomfortable with her psychotic behavior, kept Tails more accurate to his previous age(as Cream is clearly younger, hence why we got Cosmo, more around Tails' age, as a love interest. And while 4kids didn't let him say "I love you!" while pushing the button, everything else made it entirely clear what was going on), made Eggman highly memorable for having full-out characterization, good or bad moments, even bothering to explain a few moments the Sonic Adventure games didn't(like when the city is flooded, they don't tell if anything happened besides property damage. But Sonic X deliberately makes it clear everyone evacuated in time, which is implied to be their pets as well, due to the softer nature of the anime), at least in Japan they also included some game music like Live and Learn, gave Cream lots of characterization while using her way longer than the games as someone willing to fight(it's during Season 3, mainly, but it's not a short season either. She also dominates Emerl in Season 2 with help of Cheese by showing the true power of teamwork, which Sonic, Knuckles, and Rouge couldn't pull off fast enough due to having no sense of true teamwork(and Emerl kicked everyone's ass to kingdom come otherwise. He was virtually unbeatable after just one Emerald. Albeit, if Eggman had a super robot, he'd probably lose?), and that's just some of it. It's an incredible show for its purpose. Sure, I get why Chris isn't liked, or that Amy being psychotic isn't either. But it did good things.

[up] Gonna agree with this. Most popular product? Uhhhhh, I wouldn't say that. It has parts very much disliked(4kids or not). Highly popular product and easily the most popular show? Absolutely~

Edited by Irene on Oct 30th 2022 at 7:54:22 AM

Shadow?
magnum12 Since: Aug, 2009
#68178: Oct 30th 2022 at 6:55:35 PM

[up] The Ark explanation is a retcon I could get behind.

Don’t even need to change anything about the tragedy to add it in either. Using the very real idea of “good people uncover horrible heinous acts of corruption and go completely berserk with rage to the point where they stop being able to tell baddie from non combatant”. Think purge of corruption Gone Horribly Wrong

It would give Shadow some better closure with Maria’s death being unintentional.

Would also fit the Fridge Brilliance of “Wrath being the Seven Deadly Sins that is most likely to be motivated by good intentions”. Shadow’s Fatal Flaw being wrath making more sense in terms of both the retconed tragedy and said Fridge Brilliance.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#68179: Oct 30th 2022 at 7:11:44 PM

Wait, how exactly is the Sonic X version of the events aboard the Ark from 50 years ago significantly different from the game?

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#68180: Oct 30th 2022 at 7:31:53 PM

Well, for starters, I explicitly remember that one old guy — a former soldier aboard the Ark — being interviewed, and he immensely regretted the whole thing.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68181: Oct 30th 2022 at 7:39:56 PM

It's a tiny faction of G.U.N. instead of nearly everyone like in the games that we saw. Only the President was entirely separate at the time. And then we learned later that G.U.N. is the full government in the games, properly connecting them. While G.U.N. is still the government in Sonic X, it has a ton of active members who have nothing to do with the ARK incident made super clear, and they're all good guys who don't want to cover up stuff. The ones in Adventure 2 are deliberately covering it up. I can't remember entirely if the G.U.N. members who arrested Sonic in the anime were specifically with the President or not. The President is a reasonable authority figure but is willing to arrest Sonic to keep the peace if he believes it could be him. He's also working with Rouge, a spy, who is very clearly on his team quite heavily, always being actually against Eggman. We don't see actual hints of Rouge being against Eggman until Sonic Heroes in the games, as she's not legitimately his enemy so much as trying to figure out what the situation is. She still helps him and never betrays him in Adventure 2. The anime has her consistently be a detriment to his plans whenever the hell she wants, and if anything, is outsmarted by him. And yes, this counts cause she's an active member of G.U.N. in the anime where the games aren't exactly clear how it works.

We also see zero hints of regrets in the games from any G.U.N. member. Even the Commander isn't shown to be regretting the incident. It's more a case of believing someone else entirely is responsible and he is terrified originally of Shadow, making it more about fear than his personal belief they did the wrong thing. The anime has them separated enough that one actually feels like a past of terrible behavior whether others legitimately are good people trying to save the world. For the most part, game's G.U.N. were just following orders and nobody gets any legitimate screentime. They're still following orders to save the world(especially in Shadow's game), but the most personality we have is they clearly care about their teammates.

After the ARK incident in the anime, many previous G.U.N. members are arrested for their misdeeds. This doesn't happen in the games at all. It could've, if they went into it, but being G.U.N. Commander is fully in charge, who is still a bad person(at first), well, it's pretty easy to see they have different personalities, backgrounds, and alliances. Before the ARK arc in Sonic X, they were more or less the same, trying to keep the peace, not villainous at all(with maybe one member). The difference is in the details admittedly. They did a good adaption trying to keep it close, but they made sure consequences for their actions in the anime were given. So basically they fixed that to justify better human and anthro relations, and showing how what they did was not okay. Gerald on the other hand didn't get nearly as redeemed, due to nothing close to Shadow's game being adapted(besides Cosmo somewhat resembling Shadow's memory arc a little).

Shadow?
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#68182: Oct 30th 2022 at 7:40:23 PM

That's not "different" even...that just provides more context.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68183: Oct 30th 2022 at 7:43:21 PM

Sonic X actually does do a full Adaptation Expansion about it. Apparently it has a lot of cut content that never made it into the game.

Namely Sonic & Shadow were actually meant to have a boss fight in their first encounter in the city, with Shadow winning obviously.

They made it explicit that Sonic let himself be captured by GUN (At Chris' behest in X, but still) and the that the cell he was in belonged to Gerald, something that was only implied in the games.

The aforementioned GUN soldier who was the one who shot Maria specifically.

The flashback Shadow has right before he goes to help Sonic & Knuckles is expanded upon significantly.

The biggest one is right before his sacrifice, Shadow explicitly uses his Inhibitor Rings to unleash Chaos Control and declares his name after another flashback to Maria. This one is significant because up to this point, Shadow wasn't sure about his own memories but the flashback to Maria here is enough for that not to matter to Shadow, and that he will be the version of Shadow that Maria wished to protect the planet, regardless if his memories are real or not. It doesn't matter to him.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Oct 30th 2022 at 10:43:55 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#68184: Oct 30th 2022 at 8:12:26 PM

Long story short, the key difference is G.U.N. is two separate factions in X where it's one in the games. That's not just expanding it, but making a key difference in how they're portrayed.

The G.U.N. members don't fight the President in the games, nor is there a hint of anyone being arrested. It's just treated more like discipline and while it could be an expansion, they don't really match up perfectly enough for that. Besides that, Sonic X was finished in early 2005. Shadow's game itself was finished in November 2005. That means that they'd have had to have had the information on G.U.N. Commander before they started the Adventure 2 arc, which they didn't adapt an equivalent to him in any way(not just cause he's from Shadow's game, but mainly the current members of G.U.N.'s splinter faction, but also because he knew Maria personally, meaning he'd be pretty damn important for the story. Even if he showed up after the Adventure 2 arc ended). The game would've been in development decently long enough for them to know his existence at least before Sonic X ended, but mostly not before Season 2 ended. So basically, they couldn't adapt all the games yet(also why I note Cosmo so much, cause she has a lot of similarities to Shadow in his own game, though loose enough to not be a remake of the game's events, but just enough to make a similar character arc).

They're still pretty similar, won't deny that, but yeah, just saying "expansion" is a bit misleading. They decided to change how some events played out as well. Just not a lot. The differences amount isn't big, but the actual impact of how it affects the group is fairly big on its own.

Shadow?
Negacube Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#68185: Oct 31st 2022 at 12:40:01 AM

Were the comics and cartoons really that crucial in bringing in American fans to play the games, as opposed to being fans of the comics and cartoons specifically? 50% X and 50% SatAM/Archie seems really generous toward both, especially considering their notorious reputations outside their sub-fanbases. I figured it was closer to ~60% games, ~20% X, ~20% Archie, with fanfic writers and fans that insist on the cartoons and comics being canon to the games a Vocal Minority. At best, a 33-33-33% split.

I admit I'm biased and/or off base, since I've played the games since the 90s, but didn't read/watch the comics/cartoons or interact with their fanbases until the early 2010s.

Edited by Negacube on Oct 31st 2022 at 3:48:50 PM

BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#68186: Oct 31st 2022 at 3:30:24 AM

Direct causes for popularity are a hard thing to quantify. I suspect Sonic X was the introduction of the franchise for some young fans while being responsible for a great deal of fan art, AM Vs, and various fanfictions; both because of sheer volume and the timing of being a Sonic show right as the sort of stuff was becoming huge on the internet.

Obviously among some older fans X wasn't as big a deal because there other adaptations they preferred or the anime was the embodiment of a Sonic canon they weren't that interested in to begin with. Though I think generally popular adaptations circa 1993 or 2003 both served the same purpose of giving content to fans beyond just releases of the games.

X has carved out an overall decent legacy in hindsight; I don't think its penetrated the collective memory of popular culture and/orcasual fans much more than Sat AM did, but it (and some of its original characters) still endure to the fandom which is significant.

Edited by BorneAgain on Oct 31st 2022 at 6:37:21 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68187: Oct 31st 2022 at 4:12:31 AM

That's large reason why X is so popular, it came out right around the time when the Internet became more ubiquitous and it was on a Saturday morning block.

So it was able to proliferate much more than the 90's shows. And even then, AOSTH had a much longer lasting legacy as it stayed on television well into the early 2000's enough for Memetic Mutation to catch up to it.

SATAM was only on air for a few years and almost never got reruns from what I can see, with its legacy only really enduring in the comics, which are nowhere near as ubiquitous as television tends to be.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#68188: Oct 31st 2022 at 6:47:00 AM

The premise of the movie is the Sonic X plot, except with a human man that than a child.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68189: Oct 31st 2022 at 8:54:01 AM

The transition to comics is probably the biggest reason the SATAM continuity became more of a... tertiary part of the franchise. Once it became Archie's wheelhouse it became, like a lot of comic canons, more niche in nature with its own specific dedicated fanbase, and Archie not being specifically SEGA (as well as SEGA not being interested in following up with an American interpretation of their idea) meant that future adaptations weren't going to be following up on it.

There are people who still swear by it, but as the years went by and the rest of the franchise didn't really match it the whole "did you know where's a version of the story where Robotnik is an Evil Overlord who enslaved the planet?" pitch lost ground.

The only two lasting thing SATAM really made stick in the fanbase as a whole were it's concept of roboticization and Sally, tbh (and these days I mostly hear "what about Sally" from shippers). Though I've always suspected that Forces was Sonic Team's halfhearted attempt to throw a bone to that part of the fanbase, alongside a halfhearted attempt at throwing a bone to Adventure fans.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 31st 2022 at 8:54:24 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#68190: Oct 31st 2022 at 9:19:24 AM

So uh...methinks IGN have had enough of the fanbase's bullshit.

https://twitter.com/2Qwuik/status/1586852294972276738?t=mBEJ4mOMqK_1yeyuUKgSfA&s=19

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#68191: Oct 31st 2022 at 9:24:19 AM

"Sonic was never good" was their greatest mistake.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#68192: Oct 31st 2022 at 9:26:07 AM

[up][up] We ourselves are done with this community's bullshit. IGN was just the first to call it out, as no one cares what some individual fans think of a community.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#68193: Oct 31st 2022 at 9:54:40 AM

Shots Fired, Shots Fired!

Wonder if this means they are gonna own up to the monster they created?

MisterZygarde64 Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth from New Mobotropolis, Mushroom Kingdom Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth
#68194: Oct 31st 2022 at 10:07:20 AM

[up][up][up] You think that's bad? Remember the time that they rated Sonic Unleashed's HD version lower than the Wii version?

Check out Rogues Gallery Transplant: The Game
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#68195: Oct 31st 2022 at 10:10:49 AM

I do remember.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Negacube Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#68196: Oct 31st 2022 at 10:45:19 AM

Good. It's high time the more defensive parts of the fanbase got a reality check.

@Morningstar: No, '06 itself created the monster. I remember Electronic Gaming Monthly giving it bad reviews too. It's not a very good game.

Edited by Negacube on Oct 31st 2022 at 1:47:57 PM

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#68197: Oct 31st 2022 at 10:47:59 AM

I mean, the review is a positive one, actually.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#68199: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:04:46 AM

According to @Geek Critique, it predates even Shadow's game, dating at least to the YEAR OF SONIC...2003.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
MisterZygarde64 Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth from New Mobotropolis, Mushroom Kingdom Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Crazy Crossover Creator - A Man with Many Hypoth
#68200: Oct 31st 2022 at 11:09:59 AM

As much as I agree, I do think IGN and other reviewers should stop using Sonic as an easy punchline. Start using I dunno... modern Paper Mario or something...

I do remember someone here bringing up that maybe Sonic's a punchline out of jealousy from these reviewers that a series like Sly or Jak doesn't continue on but Sonic does despite his games being hit or miss.

Check out Rogues Gallery Transplant: The Game

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