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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67651: Oct 13th 2022 at 5:20:30 PM

I think I get what you're saying now, so let me extrapolate my point a bit...

Based on all of the footage and information that we have gotten so far since Frontiers has been announced, I have reason to believe that we've seen is in fact what the gameplay loop entails; you run around, solve some puzzles, beat enemies, do Cyberspace, get Chaos Emeralds, beat Titan boss. Now how those pieces play out is anyone's guess since the game isn't out yet, but I do not believe Sonic Team's focus here was on transversal but on the combat and making enemy encounters look flashy.

If you've been paying attention to how Sonic games have been designed as of late, they have been getting more and more automated and taking control away from the player. Less emphasis on how the player transverses levels, and more just guiding Sonic through as he blasts through everything as flashily as possible. Additionally, they've been adding combat mechanics to Sonic as far back as Sonic Heroes, for whatever reason. Sonic Team really do not want to make a platformer it seems.

I simply used "traditional Sonic design" as a catch all term since...well, traditional Sonic design is in fact transversal by nature.

[up][up] In my experience, most younger Sonic fans are less concerned about gameplay and more about the narrative and characters. Which is why most of the stuff people have been praising are the superficial stuff like how cool Sonic looks doing his combo attacks, or the music, or even the fact that Ian Flynn is on board with the writing staff. That's not to say the gameplay isn't important, but to many "Adventure fans", the characters are their primary reason to care about the series and the gameplay is merely a means to an end to experience that.

I don't necessarily agree with that and it doesn't make up for the misgivings the gameplay I've seen. But even if Frontier's gameplay is naff, you can expect a lot of people to praise it anyway just based on if the story is decent enough.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#67652: Oct 13th 2022 at 5:29:28 PM

It is funny though. Between a Sonic with armor, a focus on combat, gameplay flaws that might be potentially overlooked by some because of the strong tone, and a narrative centered around the Blue Blur possibly being taken to another world by a powerful humanoid...

...Frontiers really is the long lost sequel to Sonic and the Black Knight.

Edited by BorneAgain on Oct 13th 2022 at 8:31:38 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67653: Oct 13th 2022 at 5:37:17 PM

God that would annoy me; not that I think Black Knight is bad, but its such a boring ass game and no story can make up for that.

Pariah said it best in one of the comments to his Sonic Battle video; Sonic Battle's story isn't perfect and has a lot of good ideas that just aren't executed well. But the fact that it's one of the better Sonoc stories despite those issues, should tell you something about the standards of Sonic storytelling.

That's how I feel about Black Knight. I enjoyed it a lot, but it being "the best" Sonic story isn't saying much.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Oct 13th 2022 at 8:40:13 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#67654: Oct 13th 2022 at 5:44:45 PM

Based on all of the footage and information that we have gotten so far since Frontiers has been announced, I have reason to believe that we've seen is in fact what the gameplay loop entails; you run around, solve some puzzles, beat enemies, do Cyberspace, get Chaos Emeralds, beat Titan boss. Now how those pieces play out is anyone's guess since the game isn't out yet, but I do not believe Sonic Team's focus here was on transversal but on the combat and making enemy encounters look flashy.

I'm not sure about that. It's conspicuous that every bit of gameplay we've seen is mostly Sonic engaging around the exact same things. There's very little shown variety in what we see Sonic doing, where we see Sonic going, or even what Sonic is fighting, and I'm wary of attributing that to a lack of variety in the gameplay being there because of how intentional that limited scope seems to be. It reads to me like a marketing problem.

It's like if all the ads for Super Mario Odyssey only showed off the body switching mechanic as the game's big gimmick, and then only in the very first level of the game, and only against the same few initial enemies. It skews the way the game looks.

This gives me the impression that there's a lot of the game they don't want to risk showing off or spoiling - or perhaps that they noticed people responding favorably to the combat in the earlier demos and builts, and so are now hyperfocusing on that in the advertisement - but it's working to their detriment, since we only have very controlled looks at all of the facets of the game you listed. We barely know about anything.

Except combat. We know a lot about that.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 13th 2022 at 5:52:08 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67655: Oct 13th 2022 at 5:56:54 PM

Well at that point, you just gotta wait for the game lol.

I'm only going by my personal impressions and admitted bias against Sonic Team. The direction they've wanted Sonic to go in has been very apparent to me.

And this is on top of the fact that this game shares the same director as Forces, and I hope I don't need to remind you how automated and lacking in creativity that game was.

Now sure, I could be wrong and the game could have plenty to offer. I want to be wrong...but I've been following this series too long and Sonic Team just have not earned any benefit of the doubt from me. I don't care how flashy or cool their games look, I care about how they play and how interesting they are to engage in.

And none of this is to say Frontiers is going to be bad either. In fact, it might be the most well reviewed 3D Sonic game since Generations; it has all of the cool tone and lore people missed that I mentioned, and the gameplay looks simple enough for anyone to just pick it up and play, and that's on top of all of the good press the movies earned them. Its the first time a Sonic game has actually gotten attention over in Japan, which I know has been Sega's goal for decades now.

Its just not the type of game that appeals to me personally and its even further removed from the type of Sonic games I feel they should be making. If it succeeds, then I won't be upset but I'll surely have some mixed feelings about it.

Like the Drop Dash, one of the most significant moves in Sonic's arsenal has finally been added to a 3D game...and nobody but a few have focused on it compared to the combat...that bothers me.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Oct 13th 2022 at 9:25:37 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#67656: Oct 13th 2022 at 6:33:07 PM

...

I kinda like Adventure 2 the best in terms of how at least Sonic and Knuckles handle (and the rank system being point-based is also a great thing for my tastes); 1 is also neat but a tad more crude. 06 had potential and I throughly enjoy what Project 06 is doing with the gameplay there.

One thing is to be pushed forward in a loop or similar for spectacle once or twice in a level, and another is the sheer spectacle-only approach that has encroached.

And I still think that Advance 3 is so much better than Advance 2 in terms of approach to gameplay it isn't even funny. Shame on the level design tho.

The multiple characters at the end of the day is just having a similar gameplay, but doing something else when double jumping. Tails and Knuckles in Adventure 1 are as broken as the spindash in said game; Spyro the Dragon came out barely a few months before Adventure 1 and really showed how expansive levels with gliding could work.

At the end of the day, the issue with this franchise is that it is a drama queen through and through. From the devs to the fans, we all overreact.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67657: Oct 13th 2022 at 6:43:09 PM

I just want games that actually embrace what this series actually was at some point, as opposed to doing anything they can to distance themselves from those games as much as possible. There are a million spectacle based action/open world games on the market, but how many momentum based arcadey 3D platformers are there? I'll admit the former is far easier to market to the general public than the latter, but then I never really cared about trying to earn mainstream appeal.

And even then, Sonic's such a household name at this point that there's literally nothing to lose anymore by doing it. Even the "bad" Sonic games still sell at least a million copies.

Even Pokemon has started to branch itself out a bit with games like Legends: Arceus that deviate from the standard formula in a unique and interesting way. I want Sonic Team to do the opposite, I want them to re-explore the old standard formula and actually bring it to modern standards.

Sure, "Sonic the Momentum based 3D platformer" might not appeal to people as much as "Sonic the Shonen Anime character" but it would sure as hell be much more unique, at least to me it would be.

[up] Ya know what, I should reexamine Sonic Advance 3 at some point and play with the mechanics. I remember when I Played it, I really didn't care much for the tag stuff and just stuck with Sonic/Tails and had a lousy time.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Oct 13th 2022 at 9:47:08 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#67658: Oct 13th 2022 at 6:46:15 PM

In the end, the broadest appeal is what gets the most sales, which is what matters to execs.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67659: Oct 13th 2022 at 6:47:44 PM

So kill all normies, gotcha.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#67660: Oct 13th 2022 at 7:05:23 PM

Advance 3 has some counterintuitive things, like both combinations of Tails and Cream being the worst possible choices for a Flight-centered character, but, it really worked its characters out.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#67662: Oct 13th 2022 at 7:11:52 PM

I played Advance 3 less than either of its predecessors, but I think it was probably better than Advance 2.

I'm not sure what to make of Advance 2's bosses, looking back. Having to run after every boss is certainly different, if nothing else. Having to hunt for seven rings per level to access the special stages was a pain in the ass.

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#67663: Oct 13th 2022 at 7:13:22 PM

Having to run after every boss is something I'm throughly sick of.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67664: Oct 13th 2022 at 7:25:18 PM

You can easily tell where the impetus of current Sonic design came from Advance 2. Just make Sonic faster, faster, faster, faster....

Its easily the hardest of the trilogy....for all of the wrong reasons.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#67665: Oct 13th 2022 at 7:34:07 PM

i really enjoyed sonic advance 2 when i played through it a few days ago.

i played as cream, had a simple time going through the levels, and didnt bother with the chaos emeralds.

good time.

...i really have no intention on playing through the game more than that.

Edited by EpicBleye on Oct 13th 2022 at 10:35:06 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67666: Oct 13th 2022 at 7:51:22 PM

Of course the game is fine when you literally play it on easy mode :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#67667: Oct 13th 2022 at 7:51:26 PM

I really loved Sonic Advance 3. I had a blast with it. Advance 1 and 2 less so, but they were still good games. 3's the only one I played to completion, though. Finding all the lost Chao can be a pain, but at least you don't have to do them all in one go. And I just don't like the Special Stages in Advance 1 at all.

KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#67668: Oct 13th 2022 at 9:06:07 PM

It's interesting how all the Advance games feel very different from one another. You would think with the games being made by the same people, in a relatively short time period, using same engine and art assets each time would mean they all play pretty much the same, but they don't. To the point where it's common for people to only really like one and not the other two.

For me, I only really liked Advance 1. It felt mostly like previous 2D Sonic games, and it does fine as that. It makes a better Sonic 4 than Sonic 4. (Of course, most people would probably now say Mania is the best Sonic 4.)

Advance 2 and 3 both do things differently, but kind of in opposite ways. 2 ups the characters' max speed and tries to make get you to go at top speed as much as possible. The levels are also longer than usual length-wise to account for this. 3 on the other hand doesn't emphasis speed as much and instead feels more like it's emphasizing exploration. The levels have more vertical space and non-linearity than usual, the partner gimmick gives you a lot of different options to traverse levels, and finding all the lost chao means scouring the levels for them.

Of the two I would say I liked 3 more, even though I thought finding the lost chao was kind of tedious and didn't experiment with the characters much because many of the possible partner combos seemed pretty iffy. 2 felt exactly like what someone who doesn't like 2D Sonic games would describe them as. I was either holding right and bored because the game was mostly playing itself, or frustrated because I was running into bottomless pits and other dangers with no way to anticipate them besides dying first and memorizing what to do.

diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#67669: Oct 13th 2022 at 9:09:55 PM

I've never really had an issue with Sonic 4. I understand why others do, and don't begrudge them for doing so (mostly, anyway). But I really enjoyed Episode 1. Episode 2... Most people would say its an improvement, I think, but I didn't care for it as much. I didn't really like the team up moves.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67670: Oct 13th 2022 at 9:21:59 PM

Speaking of Dimps...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#67671: Oct 13th 2022 at 9:41:04 PM

Having to run after one Advance 2 boss is better than all of Advance 3's bosses...

Other than that, Advance 3 is a better game.

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#67672: Oct 14th 2022 at 4:58:33 AM

I liked the Advance 3 bosses as well. But yeah, Advance 1 is a natural evolution of 2D Sonic, Advance 2 is GOTTAGOFAST and a blatant Franchise Original Sin, and Advance 3 is highly exploration focused and its own thing. Sorta like a CD-Chaotix spiritual sucessor.

Ah, gotta remember Game FA Qs in 2005 and how people really liked Advance 2 while dumping on the other games... Rush is quite neat as well, but, yeah, shares issues with Advance 2.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#67673: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:01:44 AM

I only ever had Sonic advance 2.

Never beat it, Sky Canyon is bullshit and so are the special stage rings.

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#67674: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:42:58 AM

Advance 3 is one of the best soundtracks in the series, if nothing else. A lot of the trilogy's music is surprisingly memorable. I couldn't have been the only one taken in by the Leaf Forest Beta music in Mega Collection.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#67675: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:45:36 AM

Sonic Advance 2 being the most popular with casual audiences makes sense, and there's a reason it became the basis for Rush and the Boost games.

Boost is the purest distillation of what most people see Sonic as; nonstop speed.

And the Boost eliminates the need to actually study the level or use momentum. You just press Boost and go...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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