Thank you very much for your insight.
Huh, didn't think about that and yea, that makes sense. You don't wanna make Sonic look like a fool to someone who's supposed to be his equal.
Both Sonic and Shadow are meant to reflect each other, so Western writers kind of exaggerate their traits compared to the Eastern written games.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 9th 2022 at 7:14:17 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.That Western depiction of Sonic would honestly explain a lot of the directions characters around him went. The entire creation and continued existence of Sally Acorn as a long time love interest and counterpart to Sonic makes complete sense if he latter is a cockier showoff that is best balanced out by the more level headed albeit flawed leader like Sally. Much in the same way that "free spirit traveler that has no time for romance" Sonic can work with the typical depiction of Amy, "occasionally arrogant and sarcastic with a heart of gold" Sonic will in turn need a cast that compliments that.
Hmmm.
The description on the Mascot with Attitude page is pretty apt in how Sonic's supporting cast is written in the Western soil.
Western writers generally use the supporting cast to emphasize how much of a cool badass Sonic is supposed to be.
To Ian Flynn's credit, he is pretty good at trying to balance that out and giving the cast some agency without Sonic's influence.
I do feel like Eastern writers kind of leaned into that too though. Like, Sonic X is pretty upfront that none of the cast are on Sonic's level and they frequently need to be rescued by him. Except Knuckles, but that quickly went away when Shadow showed up.
But Knuckles was generally paired more with Rouge when Shadow needed play as Sonic's lancer, with Knuckles returning proper to Lancer duties once Shadow was out of the picture.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 9th 2022 at 7:56:51 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Yeah, the whole different ways that different regions interpreted Sonic I think lead to the issues in how people perceive him.
And it definitely lead to how some Classic fans hate how his more Shonen portrayal from SA 1-Black Knight. All the games from Sonic 1 to Sonic R were pretty light on story, so everything was open to interpretation.
AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!Tails tends to be more of a Non-Action Guy in Eastern written Sonic games I've noticed.
Which might explain his reduced active role in recent years as he became more of The Smart Guy.
Like I recently got into a conversation on SSMB about how some kind of hate Tails' modern depictions for emphasizing his smart traits over his child ones.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I don't read the comics nor have I watched or played Boom or anything, so what I've seen of Western writers doing Shadow is mainly from Chronicles and Team Racing.
I played Sonic Chronicles in Japanese, and it was kind of a rough translation, the kind where you sort of tell how the original English sentences were written. There was some times where I could tell the Japanese localizors where changing the tone of things, like toning down some the asshole responses you can have Sonic say. Shadow had this aggressive smile a lot of them time with is dialogue portrait, which didn't fit him at all. There was a particular line that stuck out at me where the party is surrounded and Shadow says something like "There's too many for you to fight through them all. But I could." It was weird enough that I had to stop and think for second and realize that it was meant to be a smug brag on Shadow's part. Which didn't fit with Shadow's tone in Japanese. That was biggest moment I've seen where it felt liike writers treating Shadow like he's Vegeta.
With Sonic Team Racing, I watched some of the cutscenes in both languages because people were talking about it, and the scene where Sonic goads Shadow into racing him. The Japanese version tones down Sonic's annyoing cockiness and Shadow's aggression and ego, but still has Shadow go along with Sonic anyway because that's how the game needs to progress. In general it seemed like the writers of Sonic Team Racing tried to wring more comedy out of the characters acting like bigger dicks to each other than the Japanese side was comfortable with.
I've said the same thing more or less.
Those multiple interpretations are what let Sonic appeal to such a wide audience, but it also lead to constant clashes when one interpretation was suddenly pushed above all others (the Japanese one).
In hindsight, Sega really should have run a tighter ship on that front and made sure there was one singular defined vision for what Sonic was supposed to be....but if they'd done that, Sonic might not be the big deal he is now.
Hell, when you consider the games, current comics, and the movies, Sonic is still being seen as many different things. While the games and comics are a little closer (especially with the latest comics and the upcoming new game being written by the same dude), but the movies are clearly doing their own thing....and it's actually managing to work too.
One Strip! One Strip!With Sonic Team Racing, I watched some of the cutscenes in both languages because people were talking about it, and the scene where Sonic goads Shadow into racing him. The Japanese version tones down Sonic's annyoing cockiness and Shadow's aggression and ego, but still has Shadow go along with Sonic anyway because that's how the game needs to progress. In general it seemed like the writers of Sonic Team Racing tried to wring more comedy out of the characters acting like bigger dicks to each other than the Japanese side was comfortable with.
Yea, this I why I feel like they've put such hard limitations on how Shadow is interpreted by Flynn. Sonic Team does not want him to be portrayed as so overly aggressive and confrontational. Which is incredibly ironic since Sonic Team are the ones everyone misblames for why Shadow is the way he is nowadays.
Yea, it's a mess. Iizuka has said recently that he wants a more unified vision of Sonic, so hopefully this gets sorted out sooner rather than later.
Which is exactly how the games work when Sonic is the only playable character. The other characters can't do much if you can't play as them.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 9th 2022 at 8:17:05 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.In the end, I think Sonic Frontiers will be a decent game. Maybe not a good game, but not a bad game. However, so people consider that worse, because bad games can be funny and memorable like Shadow the Hedgehog (which I kinda enjoy ironically) and 06. They think if it's just average, it'll be forgettable.
First time I heard of someone playing the Japanese version of Chronicles. Cool.
I get the gizmo of Team Sonic Racing, but honestly I don't really care for character consistency if the script is boring. And TSR was very boring to me in Japanese.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.Changing the subject somewhat, I've been thinking about Shadow the Hedgehog lately, specifically its story structure, which I've always thought could be interesting, but really needed work on its sequence of events and how its missions sync up with the story beats. To use an example, let's talk about Cryptic Castle.
To begin, there are some decent choices for progression here (for example, you can get to Final Haunt by either helping Maria in Lost Impact or by recreating the race with Sonic in Space Gadget, which I think are sensible choices to get you to the Hero Endings). This is actually on display in both Cryptic Castle and Circus Park. Both levels take place in one of Eggman's bases, and if you complete, respectively, the Hero mission and Dark mission for those levels, you'll be fighting the forces invading those bases, and subsequently reach Sky Troops, which begins with a scene of Eggman launching the Egg Fleet. Do the respective Dark and Hero missions, however, and not only do you not get Sky Troops, but you won't be getting Iron Jungle either, wherein Eggman refers to the Egg Fleet's strength in the opening cutscene. The implication, I'd argue, is that in those cases Eggman is not in a position where he can deploy the Egg Fleet, and instead bunkers down in the Lava Shelter.
The problem here, I think, is Cryptic Castle's Dark Mission, because that mission is given by Eggman. In fact, Cryptic Castle itself is unusual because the enemies are the Black Arms and Eggman's robots, but you're encouraged not to harm Eggman's robots in either the Hero or Dark Missions. The result is that if you help Eggman, not only does he play less of a role in the story, but you end up more aligned with Black Doom, despite having technically opposed him on this level by protecting the base. What's more, no matter what you do, you end up fighting the Egg Breaker boss, which admittedly does make a little sense, since Eggman's being a selfish asshole about the Chaos Emeralds.
The solution, I'd argue, would be to give the Dark Mission to Black Doom, and have Eggman only show up for the boss fight (this is actually how Mad Matrix handles things) - you could still focus the mission around the torches, but instead maybe you're extinguishing them, or maybe lighting them shuts down the defenses instead. This way, the implication would be that with Eggman's forces overrun here, he's now on the backfoot, and has to retreat. Note that this would arguably be mirrored in Circus Park, the factions of which are Eggman and G.U.N. - one could argue that in each case, Eggman is under assault by the faction currently has the advantage in the larger conflict and taking the opportunity to attack a dangerous third party. So if your mission involves fighting Eggman's forces, he's forced to fall back (and thus the other faction gains a larger advantage in the war), but if it involves helping him, he's then able to make bigger moves.
A few side notes:
- Amy and Tails' missions don't explicitly involve fighting the Black Arms or Eggman's robots respectively, but you'll basically be doing it as a matter of course, so your actions will still tip the scale.
- Doing the Neutral Missions on these levels presumably means a stalemate in these battles, but you can still get to Iron Jungle and Eggman will still mention the Egg Fleet, so presumably he is able to fight the invading forces off on his own, or at least they aren't able to stop him.
- Similarly, getting to Sky Troops through Prison Island's Neutral Mission presumably means that the war is still even, so neither side is able to really worry about Eggman, meaning he's able to deploy his forces as it suits him.
Sorry for the wall of text about something that might seem trivial, especially all these years later, but I dunno, I just find it interesting. I hope this made sense, and I'd be curious if anyone else had similar revisions. I really do think the branching paths could have been pretty cool if they were more thought out, even if that was probably never a huge priority.
Oh God! Natural light!Yup, agreeing on the issue of Shadow being written as too emotional being an issue (as well as that being rooted on Sonic's portrayal).
And, seeing how Sonic's popularity in Europe AFAIK was mostly rooted on Sonic 1 being an iconic game rather than on tie-in media (then again, so was Mario; the cartoons we watched in the 90s were Dragon Ball and the like), well, the "many interpretations" kinda feels weird. Most people know Sonic 1 and Adventure (due to the Dreamcast starting out big; sponsoring football clubs in Spain will grab looks), and if anything, "oh, there are more Mega Drive games, cool!".
The UK is different; Fleetway Sonic was quite big, and cartoons were also different mostly because it generally goes with American products, both in productions and dubs.
Stuff like the various cartoon adaptations (and a comic very much inspired by one of them) helps explain why Americans took/take so easily to the multiple interpretations of Sonic idea; the concept was arguably baked into a lot of the broader multimedia presentation of the franchise of the time.
Between that the overall shift in fans (with a newbie boom created by SA 2 on Gamecube and some older ones becoming less active) its not really a surprise that there is a divide in viewing the characterization/lore of the aughts era games. To a certain subset of the fandom, it is no more "definitive" to what Sonic is than what Archie or Fleetway was; just another version of the IP that could be rejected or embraced at one's leisure.
Its no different than how people view stuff like Spider Man and the TMNT. Those franchises are blatantly multimedia with different interpretations, even if the broad strokes are the same.
The same is kind of true for Sonic to an extent. But the main difference is that Sega of Japan (the main ones running Sonic) generally ignore all media that isn't made by them. So it created a weird disconnect.
Its like, most versions of the Turtles will references or acknowledge the 80's show due to its influence, but a Sonic product that references SATAM is basically nonexistent.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Those I Ps don't tend to reference stuff made out of the US either tbh...
Oddly enough, Sonic X didn't ignore the Western media and used some of its ideas as nods. The Robotnik name (at the time, Sonic Team would pretend Eggman's name was unknown), a pair of robot minions, an older figure named Chuck, and Sonic using a magic ring to turn stronger. Those come from the DIC cartoons.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.I think the real issue is both Sonic team and the West is using Vegeta as their reference...
Aka Mass Murdering Asshole, whose usually just as terrible as the villain.
Shadow was Never Vegeta levels of antagonistic... fuck I don't even think he would qualify at Iori levels antagonistic
Shadow might be introduced trying to help Eggman but the story makes it clear Shadow is more noble and heroic then He lets on or even realizes...
Praise be to the absolute Queen![]()
You're missing the point. Its not about whether Shadow is "vegeta" or not, but rather that Shadow being a mature, stoic individual while Sonic is an obnoxious braggart skewers their dynamic and makes Shadow look like an adult while Sonic looks childish.
So basically; Western writers up Sonic's obnoxious and annoying traits, which in turn reflects on Shadow who needs to be easily riled up by Sonic's traits to justify their rivalry.
It has nothing to do with "OMG HE'S VEGETA GRRR"
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Yea, I don't know how you solve that issue; being obnoxious and annoying is kind of Sonic's thing, at least in the West it is. You're not getting around that.
But by having Shadow seem like the mature one between them, it makes Sonic look like an idiot lmao. Which is kind of what happened before when Shadow was the one who was actually getting shit done while Sonic was just bumbling around.
As mentioned, their dynamic in Sonic Adventure 2 is that Sonic didn't like how Shadow looked down on him, while Shadow's stoic facade slowly cracks as Sonic proves himself. So how you keep that dynamic in later installments is beyond me.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 10th 2022 at 12:42:30 PM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Something I think might contribute to the difference in how Shadow is written between regions is how Sonic is written between regions. Because of Sonic's early "mascot with 'tude" type personality outside Japan, a lot of the time Western writers try to make Sonic into kind of a smug asshole who's always bragging and making sarcastic quips. If you write Shadow as being something of an insecure rage-baby, then that works well as a rival to that kind of Sonic since Shadow will easily buy any fight Sonic sells and it puts them on kind of the same level. If Shadow is more level-headed and stoic then it would make him look like the mature adult compared to Sonic's childish antics, which isn't what their dynamic is supposed to be.
Sonic is more meant to be care-free guy with a cool head but a hot heart. Their dynamic at least in Adventure 2 was more that Sonic was annoyed by Shadow's smug attitude and way he looks down on others, while Shadow let more of his emotions slip out the more Sonic pushed him and forced him to admit Sonic was on the same level.