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LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#65151: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:15:22 AM

Cynicism can be easy, but like with game difficulties, you don't get to see everything unless you go deeper.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#65152: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:17:13 AM

People really do be forgetting that Sonic hadn't had a functionally bad game since 2006. lol

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65153: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:27:10 AM

He hasn't really had an excellent game either. Sonic just...exists, not really doing bad, but not really doing good either.

"Meh" is the best word to describe how Sonic has been since 2006.

And that's the kindest thing I can say about it.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jun 7th 2022 at 2:30:12 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65154: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:31:01 AM

I know Colours was less well regarded as time went on, but it was pretty well liked at the time it first appeared wasn't it?

Also, what about Generations?

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65155: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:38:50 AM

I still firmly believe that if you remove Colors completely from the context of its initial release, it's an average platformer that just so happens to have Sonic in it. But because it didn't do any of the controversial shit that the prior games did and axed every character down to Sonic & Tails, everyone loved it and treated it as the second coming of Jesus.

Sonic 4 Episode 1 got similar high praise on the basis that it was as 2D Sonic game...and that's it. Oh and having a marketing campaign surrounding the fact that it had nobody but Sonic & Eggman in it.

Generations is an improvement but still pretty undercooked as an anniversary title. BUT, it has an active mod community on he PC, but that's more on fans supporting the game as opposed to the quality of the base game.

Keep in mind, I like both games just fine as they are, but I never really have an incentive to go back and replay and them much, if at all.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jun 7th 2022 at 2:40:56 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#65156: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:42:26 AM

I think the only major issue Generations suffered from (er, besides the "story") was a complete lack of replayability. Like, sure S ranks exist, but they're pathetically easy to get to the extent that as long as you don't die (in this rather easy game) and remember that the boost button exists you'll pretty consistently get A to S in every single stage.

And for a franchise that benefits so strongly from replayability, to the extent that the franchise has had to find interesting ways to pad out the playtime once the paradigm shifted, I think it was a major case of missing the whole point.

EDIT: obviously this isn't a make or break deal for Generations, but I can't help but feel like it doesn't get much time to showcase what makes itself interesting because by the time you've finished a casual playthrough you're already likely to be 80% of the way there, and most of that is either silly little missions or grabbing collectibles in a game about zooming fast. Making ranks tougher would just mean that anyone who wants to go the extra mile because "game is fun" gets a bit more to sink their teeth into in terms of refining the game's mechanics.

Edited by Numbuh1234 on Jun 8th 2022 at 4:46:09 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65157: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:53:36 AM

Essentially yea; Generations is a good game, easily the best 3D Sonic game in the last 12 years. But its like Unleashed lite, with none of the complexity or depth in mechanics. It was definitely on purpose to make the game more accessible to a general crowd and judging by its reception, it worked.

But personally speaking, it was basically one and done for me. The Ranking system is easily the most obvious attempt at accessibility. Because one thing I've noticed is that a lot of people are vocally against it, because they don't like feeling judged for how they play the game and would prefer a casual play with no pressure, fine and I understand that.

But I don't think the solution was to just make the game pathetically easy to compensate.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#65158: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:55:13 AM

Boost is fundamentally a mistake. It makes you speed through levels in a linear fashion, forces the devs to build longer levels with visuals and collision, just to blitz through it in the blink of an eye. Adventure 1 still got it right in giving you speed that gradually increases with a spindash that can be used whenever you want. If the cap were a little faster and there was a cooldown of sorts so you can't just spam the dash, it'd fix both momentum and earning speed in 3d environments.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65159: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:56:13 AM

Well you can't really say that anymore since now we have Boost....in an open world. oooooooohhhhh. Not too linear now huh.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65160: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:43:30 PM

I agree with you, but considering the spectre of 06 more than ten years later, I'm not surprised people would believe Sega would show off something that bad.

That's kind of why it was surprising. I think I mentioned it before, but the footage they showed off didn't look bad - it looked early. Or to put in another way, it looked basic.

All the primary stuff that was clearly missing were things that get added later in development: overlays and filters to hide texture popping and load-in, the whole thing in combat where there's clear animation pops where cinematics are going to be added in, the entire physical layout of the area - even bonus areas - being loaded at once (so that everything in the area can be tested), all of it is stuff that screams "this is a build without the bells and whistles, for testing and/or showing off how everything works on a basic level."

And the weird thing was that people cottoned onto it pretty unanimously at first. When we first saw the footage, everyone's reaction was "yeah, this is obviously an early build."

It wasn't until later that the "no, Sonic Team is awful and makes awful games, and thus this must be what the game is actually going to look like at launch" conspiracy theories came in and suddenly everyone was on the bandwagon. It just came off as the fanbase falling into the cynicism so hard that they started doubting their own senses.

Like everyone was going "this looks like an early build, functions like an early built, and quacks like an early build, but since this is Sega it must actually not be" and it was just a bit baffling to me.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 12:44:46 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65161: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:49:53 PM

To explain things a bit more, it's a bit more complicated than "Lol Sega sucks" but rather the questioning of why would Sega show off early beta footage of their big AAA Holiday release game in such a state.

And the fact that any time there's a new release for Sonic game, there's always a vocal defense force that is ready to go to bat for it and dispel any and all criticism, valid or not.

Bottom line, even if this is an early build from the game, this is what Sega chose to show off and therefore, is what people are going to judge them on. Sonic does not have the same amount of goodwill as other game franchises, so yes, Sega do generally need to do much more to get in people's good graces to get over.

Is it a little unfair? Perhaps, but it's a problem of Sega's own making for how they've failed to maintain Sonic's legacy in the last two decades or so. If Sonic was able to maintain the level of quality seen in say, Mario or Zelda games, people wouldn't be so hard on him but he hasn't sooooo, here we are.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65162: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:59:13 PM

I know why people jumped to that conclusion, I just don't percieve the conclusion jump as justifiable given that it was obvious what it really was, and I was perplexed because the fanbase as a whole cottoned on to what it really was at first before unanimously ignoring what they had already figured out for cynicism's sake.

If this didn't clearly look like an early build, I'd agree. If the fanbase hadn't already figured out it was an early build, I'd also agree. But this whole thing just turned into a cynicism sinkhole despite everyone's better judgment.

Regardless of what Sonic Team has done in the past, it's frankly not a good look for the fanbase.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:10:58 AM

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#65163: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:05:35 PM

The worst part of the special is how they mispronounce Memphis Tenesse's name.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65164: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:10:46 PM

[up][up]It is what it is. I'm not really going to blame Sonic fans for being upset at Sega's incompetence because a lot of them are generally willing to give the benefit of the doubt, only for things to still turn out bad.

Generally speaking, it's also a matter of expectations versus reality; when Iizuka said that he wanted Frontiers to redefine Sonic, people were willing to take him at his word and thought that they would legit overhaul the mechanics of 3D Sonic and turn it into something that serves as a true successor to the Classic games like Sonic Adventure tried to be.

First we got that initial teaser that featured nothing really recognizable from the series, and what appeared to be the model used in Sonic Forces, a game that is already very divisive in the fanbase. But people were still willing to wait.

Then the gameplay reveal and what we got was....a souped up version of the Boost formula but plopped down into a generic open 3D world.

Now if you liked Boost, well....congrats. But many people wanted something more along the lines of Sonic Adventure and...well that's clearly not what this is.

I personally wanted that full overhaul too, but I'm too tired to really care anymore. I wasn't really impressed by what I saw and the prospect of playing another Boost game doesn't really interest me either. I've just been doing this song and dance long enough to not really overreact anymore.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jun 7th 2022 at 4:11:12 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65165: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:11:06 PM

To put why it's not a great moment for the fanbase another way: I remember one of the first comments I saw regarding the footage was that it was a good thing Sonic Team was showing this level of transparency in their development process: letting the fans see the bare bones of what they're doing, warts and all, and opening themselves up for development feedback and guidance - something they've been sorely missing in the past.

In response, the fanbase showed them that they actually can't have that level of transparency with the audience, because the fanbase won't reciprocate. Which, if Sonic Team reacts badly, could be one of those things that results in the fanbase screwing themselves out of something that would've only been positive for the series going forward.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:13:29 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65166: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:12:51 PM

You can say "Well what Sega does in the past shouldn't affect how people act now" but like...people are only acting like this because of what Sega have done in the past lol.

Again, I'd agree if this were an actual example of incompetence, or if the fanbase hadn't known it wasn't an example of incompetence and simply convinced themselves otherwise.

When Sonic Forces was revealed and people criticized its potential issues, there was vocal backlash towards said critique with claims of "its too early to judge"....only for the game to come out and all of those potential issues came to past.

This is basically the song and dance when it comes to Sonic games; game gets revealed, people give constructive criticism, some fans overreact to said constructive cricisim, which causes the other side to overreact in turn. The game comes out, gets mixed reviews and nobody is really satisfied at the end of the day.

Soo.....I don't really know what to say.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jun 7th 2022 at 4:15:36 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65167: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:13:32 PM

Again, I'd agree if this were an actual example of incompetence, or if the fanbase hadn't known it wasn't an example of incompetence and simply convinced themselves otherwise.

This, by all appearances, was a step forward for Sonic Team that the fanbase was unable to accept, simply because they're unable to accept positive developments at face value. Which feels more like the fanbase's fault than Sonic Team's.

I'm in a lot of fanbases where a portion of the fanbase is unable to be anything but cynical or dismissive of the franchise even in situations where it's not warranted. In most fanbases, those portions tend to be shunned because they're not actually positive, and are antithetical to worthwhile development for the franchise. The Sonic Team is the only fanbase I'm in besides the Star Wars fanbase (and even then, not as much in Star Wars any more) where people continually make excuses for that kind of behavior.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:18:21 AM

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#65168: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:15:45 PM

Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse, as bad as the past marketing decisions were, it doesn't justify such vitriolic responses.

[up][up]That's another problem, trying to use precedent even though that was just one time. Not every follows up a patter with the same result.

Edited by LoneCourier0 on Jun 7th 2022 at 10:17:12 AM

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
KuroBaraHime ☆♥☆ Since: Jan, 2011
☆♥☆
#65170: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:17:07 PM

As much as people are talking about the graphics, animations, and artstyle, I suspect the biggest thing that's actually causing people to react so much more negatively than when the game was first announced is that there's still been nothing about what your actual goal in the game is. There's basically been nothing revealed about the story, nor can we see the HUD in any footage shown. Without any context to go off of as why you would be doing anything the game, it makes it look like the game is nothing but Sonic running around an open area for no reason. That's probably a big reason the game looks unfinished even without accounting for how it looks graphically, it makes it seem like Sonic Team is still in tech demo phase and hasn't implemented any actual goals or purpose into the game yet.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#65171: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:17:35 PM

[up][up][up][up]That only operates under the assumption the steps forward are actually positive though. Its never really clear with Sonic games because the series very rarely has a consistently positive track record.

And even then, I feel like this a bit more nuanced than "Lol Sonic fans amirite"

[up][up][up] This isn't just a "one time" thing. If you asked anybody, fan or not, most would agree that Sonic's 3D career has been, at best, mediocre. Under general circumstances, that would be fine, but Sonic is generally held to the same standard as Nintendo's games tend to be.

So...for Sega to continuously drop the ball, for whatever reason, well....its gonna grate on your patience at some point. There's nothing worse than having high expectations that are continuously never met.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jun 7th 2022 at 4:21:04 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65172: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:19:06 PM

I'm not saying it's not nuanced. I'm saying that regardless of the nuance, the fanbase still screwed up.

Even if it turns out that Sonic Team made a big mistake and had something better to show, or if they make any further big mistakes in the future, the fanbase's response to this particular situationwas still very bluntly the wrong thing to do.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:19:55 AM

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#65173: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:19:43 PM

Are we saying that we should cut the Sonic Frontiers gameplay trailers some slack, because we all knew it was taken from early in the game's development and the game has obviously progressed since then? Because I have not heard Sega announce that this is the case.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65174: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:21:00 PM

[up] There was an article posted a page or so ago that stated outright the footage we got to see was from an early build.

My point was never that we should give them the benefit of the doubt for future developments, but that it was kind of obvious that it was an early build from the moment we saw it, and that it's weird that everyone initially did understand that it was but convinced themselves otherwise. We really shouldn't have needed an article to tell us that directly.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:23:32 AM

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#65175: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:22:47 PM

Which makes it worse when an Obvious Beta is released as the final version(and that isn't that constant). But yeah, that was very obvious as is.

There was no way that was the final build. Seriously. -_-

Edited by Irene on Jun 7th 2022 at 3:23:10 AM

Shadow?

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