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Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#53701: Aug 20th 2020 at 10:52:14 PM

I mean, I don't believe they're not capable of ever making a good original game again?

Edited by Perseus on Aug 21st 2020 at 3:52:30 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53702: Aug 20th 2020 at 10:53:11 PM

Then the possibility of them successfully making another Generations-style game would reasonably be the same.

Quality is not contingent on content, it's contingent on the skill and foresight that goes into making that content. Sonic Team has a long history of not having the foresight to support their skill, but that would continue to be a problem regardless of the type of game they chose to make.

If we're just going to assume that whatever next game they try to make isn't never going to fix that problem, we might as well just abandon ship.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 20th 2020 at 10:57:01 AM

Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#53703: Aug 20th 2020 at 10:55:57 PM

Well, yeah. I wasn't particularly intending to imply otherwise, only further express my personal preference that I would rather them not go back to the nostalgia well.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53704: Aug 20th 2020 at 10:59:23 PM

I mean, there's a world of difference between "I don't want to play a game with X style of levels" and "we have to assume they'll bungle whatever's next," hence my response.

Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#53705: Aug 20th 2020 at 11:01:31 PM

But that's what you suggested. Jokingly, of course, which I responded to not nearly as seriously as I suppose it came across. So now we're talking past each other based on a misunderstanding.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#53706: Aug 20th 2020 at 11:02:18 PM

....So....what are everyone's thoughts on a second Sonic Generations game

Forces was lame.

Why stop? Sonic sometimes feels like the only series that gets complaints like that. Practically every other long running platforming series - heck, most long running series in general - has a stable cadre of older stages and mainstay concepts that are in every game. I remember I used to joke that you'll never see a "Mario Generations" game, because every Mario game is like that.

The problem with this for Sonic is that the lack of consistent quality in its games means the nostalgia pandering comes off as uninspired and lazy. Plus it feels like you see Green Hill in literally every game. At least when Mario references 1-1 it's only a screen long.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53707: Aug 20th 2020 at 11:06:55 PM

One level does is an addiction to nostalgia as a whole. It's an addiction to one level. That's, I think the crux of the problem here. People are conflating "I'm tired of seeing this one level in every game" with "they should never do anything nostalgic again, ever." But what they're responding to isn't actually nostalgia itself.

And to that I'd have to bring up my second half of that quoted post:

Sonic Team is really the one to look for for a company that does "we gotta reinvent ourselves" too much, not too little. And ironically, as a result they've created a lot of diverse ideas, and most of that well of content is just sitting there, not really being used despite being positively received

It can't be said enough that Sonic Team is not a company prone to holding onto older ideas, let alone overemphasizing them. The idea that Sonic Team only ever does nostalgia and never tries anything new is demonstrably false. They're a company that constantly tries to do brand new ideas while not giving their current ones space to breathe. They have little in the way of consistency.

What they are known for doing is trying to make a show out of emphasizing this or that for image purposes. This is why instead of actually exploring their library of ideas and building on what they have, they do stuff like put Green Hill specifically into every game without bothering to make those repeats fun, or throw Classic Sonic into games without any substance to his levels or narrative support. That's not nostalgia, however, that's "that worked once, right? Let's just keep doing it!" corporate tone-deafness - one of many examples of them thinking they're doing what fans want while not knowing at all why fans liked those things in the first place. It comes from the same place as Darker and Edgier Shadow, or The Rookie.

Essentially Sonic Team is trying to make it look like they're down with the fans and have got a healthy degree of nostalgia, which is exactly why it had the opposite effect and comes off as a negative take on the concept - they're being incessant, rather than smart. The fault isn't in the nostalgia, it is - as it always is - in the execution. It also can't be said enough that most, if not all, long running video game series keep an everpresent nostalgia just fine - a balance of remakes and new games, throwback titles and new ideas. And that sort of thing is also why Mania is so much more successful than, say, Classic Sonic's levels in Forces.

There is, conceptually, nothing wrong with doing another Generations. It's just another game. Before it, or after it, they could just as easily do something else. Them making one wouldn't be a sign of them never ever doing anything but Generations-style titles. Hell, since their older games feature level designs and concepts that they haven't touched in ages, you're actually more likely to get gameplay that feels new from a game like that than from their more cookie cutter attempts these days. When's the last time we had a theme park level?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 20th 2020 at 11:22:36 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#53708: Aug 20th 2020 at 11:32:27 PM

I find Sonic Team always takes the wrong criticism to heart when a Sonic game is made. Like not having anyone besides Sonic playable for years when there were complaints about overstuffing games with Sonic's cast. People were frustrated that the cast's playstyles ended up half-baked or took time from polishing other aspects of the games, not necessarily the cast themselves, and now we have people begging Sonic Team to remember Sonic has an extended cast. People complained that Sonic games' stories were too over the top or edgy, now we have Excuse Plot after Excuse Plot and/or inappropriate levity (looking at you, Forces). People wanted some Classic Sonic gameplay, now he's shoehorned into every game regardless of whether he belongs there (again, Forces).

Oissu!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53709: Aug 21st 2020 at 4:22:17 AM

At this point, it's just how Sega in general handles things. Ever since the 90's, their entire marketing strategy has just been reacting to whatever their opposition is doing with no real foresight involved. Sonic was literally created in direct response to Mario for example. They figured they could coast on 2D gameplay when it was plain as day thr industry was moving towards 3D games, released a console with almost no games on it with the Saturn.

To bring this back to Sonic; the series post classic has struggled with its identity because Sega aren't interested in creating a unified brand for it. If they do have a vision, it's a shaky and flimsy one.

The reason fans are so cynical of nostalgia is two fold; its as said, its the cynical type of nostalgia with no actual thought put into it, its just thrown in because people liked it before but with no attempt at making it feel fresh. Secondly, its the same nostalgia all of the time, so people who are mainly Adventure fans are upset that their nostalgia isn't being pandered to.

Which makes it rather funny people want an Adventure remake so badly, as if it won't be a blatant cash grab with thr bare minimum of quality control like Sonic 4 was.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#53710: Aug 21st 2020 at 4:31:18 AM

Which makes it rather funny people want an Adventure remake so badly, as if it won't be a blatant cash grab with thr bare minimum of quality control like Sonic 4 was.

That's what I've been thinking since the idea was first floated.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53711: Aug 21st 2020 at 4:50:22 AM

Its ok, they'll get burned just like the rest of us.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
DevilSketch36 Since: May, 2020
#53712: Aug 21st 2020 at 7:48:24 AM

Hate to break up this positivity, but is Eggman Nega currently from the future or Blaze's dimension? Or both?

BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#53713: Aug 21st 2020 at 8:15:37 AM

I think Generations still has a great format that could be utilized without the use of either Classic Sonic or old levels. Keep the structure of 3D levels with Sonic (and minimize the use of 2D in them as much as possible) while the 2D levels have Tails as the playable character. You get the latter in without breaking the game via his flight and genuinely differentiate between him and Sonic in playstyle.

Long term I think there's something to the idea of having the 3D speed emphasized levels with appropriate characters (Sonic, Blaze, Shadow) and then having either complex 2D stages (with Tails, Knuckles, Blaze) or platform oriented 3D stages that are just contrasting enough from the faster ones without being too different (with Amy, Silver, Omega). Yeah you'd have rancor about the 2D stages, but both DKC and the indie scene have done wonderful things in the genre as of late, so they can be dynamic if done well.

Edited by BorneAgain on Aug 21st 2020 at 7:54:03 AM

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#53714: Aug 21st 2020 at 8:20:23 AM

[up][up] I’d say that he’s originally from the future and got teleported into Blaze’s world after Rivals 2.

Back to the other topic:

Sad thing is that an Adventure remake probably does have a chance of just being a cheap cash grab considering how Sega blindly follows trends without understanding why they are trends in the first place.

I also think that they don’t know how to play the nostalgia card correctly as they’re only making an attempt at classic nostalgia while ignoring Adventure fans, thus inflating the issue that people have with nostalgia as Adventure fans feel “left out”.

Edited by powerpuffbats on Aug 21st 2020 at 10:20:45 AM

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#53715: Aug 21st 2020 at 10:48:30 AM

There's also the thing that the remakes may either be too similar to the original ones (with all their flaws) or when trying to fix the problems it ends up being too different and this alienates the fans.

What the fuck is wrong with the auto correct Christ.

Edited by Fedetropes on Aug 21st 2020 at 12:17:01 PM

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53716: Aug 21st 2020 at 11:09:43 AM

Keep the structure of 3D levels with Sonic while the 2D levels have Tails as the playable character.

I've been wanting them to do this for ages. It's such a good idea.

They have the gameplay style all made, they're clearly looking for means to use it, and Tails is always going to be there in every single story so just give him that gameplay instead. It would also solve the problems inherent with putting Tails in 3D too (lol, balacing flight).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 21st 2020 at 11:31:08 AM

BorneAgain (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#53717: Aug 21st 2020 at 12:32:49 PM

[up]It would also easily fit into the idea of the two of them as a duo working together without necessarily having them in the exact same place. Their dynamic completely gels with the concept of Sonic taking a path and Tails taking another with cutscenes/bosses showing how they're mutually achieving their goals. The former takes out some Eggman monstrosity while the latter disables some power grid just to throw out an idea. And you could always invert it for the next boss with Sonic distracting some badniks while Tails takes out the big bad himself.

The best part is that you could still incorporate stuff like multiple paths and red rings for both. Not to mention special stages and the chaos emeralds collection too (hedgehogs can only go super silliness be damned) allowing the two to go super in their respective levels.

Edited by BorneAgain on Aug 21st 2020 at 3:35:06 PM

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#53718: Aug 21st 2020 at 12:53:15 PM

I have a question: is Sonic Retro down for anyone? I seem to be unable to access the site.

For the record my internet is fine, the site takes too long to load anything.

It may be that something is just not letting me access it at all.

Edited by powerpuffbats on Aug 21st 2020 at 3:01:42 AM

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#53719: Aug 21st 2020 at 1:09:37 PM

Seems fine on my end.

Also, this. It's actually quite interesting; not only was there a scrapped Tails game called Treasure Tails, but an artist for Sonic 2 shares sketches of a character he pitched to be Sonic's partner, a turtle by the name of "Boomy/BoomBoom/Boomer". I imagine if the character got through back then, people would be making "ok Boomer" jokes about him today [lol]

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#53720: Aug 21st 2020 at 1:11:43 PM

Huh. It may just be an issue with my browser.

EDIT: Okay, it's fine for me.

Edited by powerpuffbats on Aug 21st 2020 at 3:13:05 AM

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Maljen Since: Jan, 2015
#53721: Aug 21st 2020 at 2:35:27 PM

Neat how Treasure Tails had those human looking statues.

Hate to break up this positivity, but is Eggman Nega currently from the future or Blaze's dimension? Or both?

He was introduced as being from the Sol Dimension (recall him calling it "MY world "). I'm sure him being Eggman's descendant roots in him replacing another character seen here in lowest right:

https://ibb.co/6ZSRJYn

You can see he looks like like a thin and much younger Robotnik.

(side note that Rush's dialogue is yet more evidence that Two-Worlds wasn't a thing until Unleashed at the earliest)

Anyway as far as retcons go this was one of the few better ones since Blaze deserved a better archenemy than Nega.

Edited by Maljen on Aug 21st 2020 at 2:37:18 AM

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#53722: Aug 21st 2020 at 3:38:11 PM

I like Generations fine as an anniversary "best of the best" type game. That's what made it special.

It's not really living up to its title if it's not doing that. T There may be "good" Sonic history to draw from, but I don't know if I'd toss pre-order money at them for Metal Harbor or Twinkle Park.

The time to use those stages would've been in a port. The 3DS version I think had different stages, Emerald Ocean among them.

I like the idea of Tails being 2D - it's innovative, and if him being in 3D is really that big of a problem I guess it solves it - but I wouldn't call it "Generations 2" just for the sake of consistency.

Edited by FOFD on Aug 21st 2020 at 3:47:05 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53723: Aug 21st 2020 at 4:50:53 PM

Really, if Sega would flesh out the idea; 2D Tails and 3D Sonic could actually work very well.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Maljen Since: Jan, 2015
#53724: Aug 21st 2020 at 7:37:48 PM

Ian Flynn Twitter flare up again. This time on Rouge's status within G.U.N. (saying that she's a freelance agent, clashing with earlier word that she has no ties to them here on 27:08):

https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC/status/1296909258303385600

https://twitter.com/Geek60518990/status/1296860106622197761

https://twitter.com/Geek60518990/status/1296931022924386309

And on Two-Worlds (saying that indeed it's two separate planets/dimensions the characters travel around using Warp Rings here on 26:40 and that alledgely Iizuka "found it from Naka"):

https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC/status/1296921729974112257

https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC/status/1296947897775333376

https://twitter.com/Geek60518990/status/1296951180464193536

https://twitter.com/Geek60518990/status/1292980526719148034

Edited by Maljen on Aug 21st 2020 at 8:10:21 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53725: Aug 21st 2020 at 8:18:02 PM

Have we gotten to the point of just nitpicking every piece of information now?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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