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Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#1: Feb 19th 2011 at 7:34:39 AM

I have this suspicion that we have a name for it. This kind of potholing with no structure:

And then Alice proceeded to gut the fish monster with a giant kitchen knife.

I'm always bothered by this practice, I find them confusing, gratuitous, and have little sense when the actual words being potholed is compared with the pothole. However it could be just me, so I never edited examples to what I'd find more orderly.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Feb 19th 2011 at 7:39:36 AM

We don't have a name for it, and I tend to edit it out most of the times I find it. Far too many times, it's either someone hiding a subjective in a trope example, or there's no real connection between what's potholed and what the sentence is about — only a word or words that they happen to have in common.

edited 19th Feb '11 7:39:46 AM by Madrugada

blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#3: Feb 19th 2011 at 7:44:27 AM

I think the phenomena needs a name and a prescription. I'm finding a lot of them from working on the YMMV move.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#4: Feb 19th 2011 at 7:44:47 AM

I tend to dislike pothole chaining unless it's actually useful.

Chained Potholes?

edited 19th Feb '11 7:45:48 AM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#5: Feb 19th 2011 at 7:55:50 AM

I especially dislike them when the attempted joke redefines and raises the ante on lame.

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#6: Feb 19th 2011 at 7:56:22 AM

The chaining itself is just the tip of the iceberg. What bothers me is how the individual links don't make much sense.

edited 19th Feb '11 7:57:53 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:11:54 AM

It's not the chaining that's the problem, as much as the irrelevance of most of them. Call 'em Sinkholes?

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#8: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:19:25 AM

Sinkhole adds as much catchiness as it sacrificed clarity. I'd take it.

EDIT: So it doesn't exist yet. Should I YKTTW it?

edited 19th Feb '11 8:22:21 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#9: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:27:13 AM

Yeah, sinkholes is good for me. A high potholing density isn't bad, it's when it's random that it's bad.

Fight smart, not fair.
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#10: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:39:18 AM

I like Sinkholes, too. It probably belongs on the Wiki Lexicon that I can't of the real name this minute.

How are we going to keep it from becoming an adventure in self referential horseshit?

And how do we put a hit on anyone who does a sinkhole within the definition?

I seem violent today.

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#11: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:42:55 AM

If we're going to indulge in self-referentialism, at least make the page brief and concise.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#12: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:44:09 AM

A definition and a prescription. And no examples.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#13: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:51:06 AM

The only reason I see to make a page for Sinkhole is to be able to link to it in edit reasons and discussion saying "X deleted — sinkhole", or "Don't sinkhole to irrelevant trope names, please."

The page itself? Yes, a definition, one fictional example with the pothole markup showing to demonstrate exactly what we're talking about, and permission to excise them with extreme prejudice whenever they are spotted.

edited 19th Feb '11 9:00:00 AM by Madrugada

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#14: Feb 19th 2011 at 8:54:52 AM

Like blackcat said. Otherwise it would be quite lengthy to explain in discussions. We can also put it in the guideline.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#15: Feb 19th 2011 at 9:20:14 AM

Do make sure there's a counter example. For instance "Eight Bit Theatre:Blackmage constantly stabs Fighter is not an example of Sinkholing, as it's just potholed to the appropriate tropes, it's randomality that makes it a sinkhole"

Fight smart, not fair.
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#16: Feb 19th 2011 at 9:21:07 AM

How about like so (file it to Wiki Tropes):

To Pot Hole is to use 'hidden' links, where phrases are linked to pages whose actual titles may not appear in the text itself. This is of course a laudable practice when done correctly, since it allows linking to relevant articles without disrupting the narrative flow.

Sinkholes are when pot holing go wrong. For some reason tropers are fond of giving certain parts of the text extreme emphasis and link a sentence to whatever tropes tangentially related to what is being discussed. Of course, many a times there's only one sentence, but many pages to link to. What to do, then? Why, divide the sentence to equal parts and link each part to the articles! Except no, don't do that. That way we'll get a blob of mess like this:

And then Alice proceeded to gut the fish monster with a giant kitchen knife.

In a wiki, it's better to pot hole words which represent the article they are linked to. Pot holing "kitchen knife" to Knife Nut is reasonable, but "gut the" to Moment Of Awesome? "With a giant" to Blood Is the New Black? That is too Dada. A more reasonable way of writing it is like so:

And then Alice, in a true Beware the Nice Ones manner, proceeded to gut the fish monster with a giant kitchen knife, which for some is her quintessential Moment Of Awesome.

Note that for a passage to qualify as a sinkhole it has to be both 1) featuring a chain of pot holes and 2) some or all of the pot holes in question are irrelevant/there's no real connection between what's pot holed and what the sentence is about. So an example like this:

...is not an example of sinkholing, as it's just potholed to the appropriate tropes — it's the randomality that makes a sinkhole, a sinkhole.

Of course, all too often it is used instead to hide a subjective trope in inappropriate places, or just plain gushing/complaining. If you see one of these, please improve the writing by removing the unnecessary links while restructuring the way the necessary ones are written.

To not do so is a transgression.

edited 19th Feb '11 9:38:27 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Feb 19th 2011 at 9:54:08 AM

I disagree. It doesn't need to feature a chain of potholes. A sinkhole is a pothole that is inappropriate or irrelevant, whether it's in a chain or not. The problem isn't with chaining, in itself. The problem is irrelevance.

The fact that chains and irrelevance often appear together is a side effect of the fact that there are editors who believe that the more potholes and links a page or entry has, the better it is, and therefore they shove all the links they can think of into what they write.

"In Star Wars [[TheJoker Mark Hamill]] is..." is also a sinkhole. The fact that Mark Hamill voiced The Joker is completely irrelevant to his role in Star Wars.

edited 19th Feb '11 9:56:53 AM by Madrugada

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#18: Feb 19th 2011 at 9:57:30 AM

Ah, I see. But shouldn't we make the chained version a subcategory of it? Since it's numerous enough to be a bad practice in its own right?

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#19: Feb 20th 2011 at 6:55:04 AM

Integrated it:

To Pot Hole is to use 'hidden' links, where phrases are linked to pages whose actual titles may not appear in the text itself. This is of course a laudable practice when done correctly, since it allows linking to relevant articles without disrupting the narrative flow.

Sinkholes are when pot holing go wrong. That is to say, whenever a pot hole features a link which is irrelevant, inappropriate, or both. In a wiki, it's better to pot hole words which represent the article they are linked to. Consider Mark Hamill, who both portrayed Luke Skywalker in Star Wars and voiced The Joker.

In Star Wars Mark Hamill is...

The above is a sinkhole, because the fact that Mark Hamill voiced The Joker is completely irrelevant to his role in Star Wars. Whenever an example like this is found, it is permitted to excise it with extreme prejudice.

A particularly annoying version of sinkholing is when pot holes are chained with shinkhole characteristics. For some reason tropers are fond of giving certain parts of the text extreme emphasis and link a sentence to whatever tropes tangentially related to what is being discussed. Of course, many a times there's only one sentence, but many pages to link to. What to do, then? Why, divide the sentence to equal parts and link each part to the articles! Except no, don't do that. That way we'll get a blob of mess like this:

And then Alice proceeded to gut the fish monster with a giant kitchen knife.

Remember, pot holed words should represent the linked page. Pot holing "kitchen knife" to Knife Nut is reasonable, but "gut the" to Moment Of Awesome? "With a giant" to Blood Is the New Black? That is too Dada. A more reasonable way of writing it is like so:

And then Alice, in a true Beware the Nice Ones manner, proceeded to gut the fish monster with a giant kitchen knife, which for some is her quintessential Moment Of Awesome.

Note that for a passage to qualify as a sinkhole the pot hole(s) in question should be irrelevant/there's no real connection between what's pot holed and what the sentence is about. So an example like this:

...is not an example of sinkholing, as it's just potholed to the appropriate tropes — it's the randomality that makes a sinkhole, a sinkhole.

Of course, all too often it is used instead to hide a subjective trope in inappropriate places, or just plain gushing/complaining. If you see one of these, please improve the writing by removing the unnecessary links while restructuring the way the necessary ones are written.

To not do so is a transgression.

edited 20th Feb '11 6:58:31 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ Since: Oct, 2009
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
#20: Feb 20th 2011 at 7:23:47 AM

The only change I might suggest is that generic main-page examples shouldn't have references to Moment Of Awesome and its ilk at all, should they?

Jet-a-Reeno!
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#21: Feb 20th 2011 at 8:00:53 AM

Here is a suggestion: I did this in word and didn't bother with the formatting and I have to go to my mother in laws in like five minutes.

A Pot Hole uses 'hidden' links, phrases linked to pages whose actual titles may not appear in the text. This is a laudable practice when done correctly, it allows linking to relevant articles without disrupting the narrative flow.

Sinkholes are pot holes that feature links irrelevant, inappropriate, or both. In a wiki, it's better to pot hole words which represent the article they are linked to. Consider Mark Hamill, who both portrayed Luke Skywalker in Star Wars and voiced The Joker.

In Star Wars Mark Hamill is...

The above is a sinkhole, the fact Mark Hamill voiced The Joker is irrelevant to his role in Star Wars. Whenever an example like this is found, excise it with extreme prejudice. Chained sinkholes are particularly annoying. These give certain parts of the text extreme emphasis and link a sentence to tangentially related tropes. Often there is one sentence that links to several pages. A chained sinkhole is divided into parts each part is linked to an article. That creates a mess like this:

And then Alice proceeded to gut the fish monster with a giant kitchen knife.

Remember, pot holed words represent the linked page. Pot holing "kitchen knife" to Knife Nut is reasonable, but "gut the" to Moment Of Awesome? "With a giant" to Blood Is The New Black? That is too Dada. A more reasonable way of writing it is like so:

And then Alice, in a true Beware The Nice Ones manner, proceeded to gut the fish monster with a giant kitchen knife, which for some is her quintessential Moment Of Awesome.

Note that for a passage to qualify as a sinkhole the pot hole(s) in question should make an irrelevant or nonexistent connection between what is pot holed and the sentence. An example like this:

8-Bit Theater: Black Mage constantly stabs Fighter.

...is not an example of sinkholing, because it is potholed to the appropriate tropes. Random connections make a sinkhole, a sinkhole.

Often sinkholes are used to bury a subjective trope in an example or description. If you see one of these, remove the unnecessary link and restructure the necessary ones.

edited 20th Feb '11 8:01:32 AM by blackcat

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#22: Feb 21st 2011 at 2:45:39 AM

So in short you want to trim them? But we agreed on the content, right? Presentation aside?

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
blackcat Since: Apr, 2009
#23: Feb 21st 2011 at 6:20:54 AM

I think we should keep the formatting, I was in a hurry and didn't complete my thought or the sentence properly.

The bulk of my previous post was an edit of what Catalogue wrote. I was trying to shift it from passive to active voice and away from reflexive qualifiers like "of course". Again, keep the formatting, but look and make sure my edits help clarify the description.

AndrewGPaul Since: Oct, 2009
#24: Feb 21st 2011 at 6:39:26 AM

"Random connections make a sinkhole, a sinkhole. "

Perhaps something like "Random connections are what turn a pothole into a sinkhole". Even then, I don't think "random" is the correct word.

Avoiding sinkholes is difficult - I had to resist the urge to pothole the last sentence to The Princess Bride. smile

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#25: Feb 21st 2011 at 7:04:34 AM

There: Sinkhole

I used blackcat's shortened version, but as it's (I think) a bit too concise, I decided to keep certain parts from the longer one. I replaced "random" with "non-representative".

Is this okay?

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

Total posts: 41
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