TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Question about Real Women Never Wear Dresses

Go To

CaitsMeow Since: Jun, 2009
#1: Feb 17th 2011 at 8:35:34 AM

I'm sorry; I wasn't sure where to post this since I haven't actually seen that much misuse. I just want something cleared up.

This is a trope that criticizes the mindset that a feminine woman is a man-pleasing doormat, right? I know I've seen several examples around the wiki (and in Troper Tales) where people use it to mean "this female character doesn't like skirts".

So...first of all, am I in the wrong here? (Tropes Are Flexible and all...) And secondly, is the idea of a female character not wanting to wear a dress for whatever reason prevalent enough in fiction to actually need a trope or is it already covered by something else?

edited 23rd Feb '11 6:41:52 AM by CaitsMeow

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Feb 17th 2011 at 9:11:43 AM

The definition of Real Women Never Wear Dresses is that in fiction, there is a tendency to not (or very rarely) put tough, strong, independent, or active women in dresses, because the dress "weakens" the character; and the corollary, a woman who regularly wears dresses is expected to be ineffective, weak, dependent, or passive. That's really all it is.

As with any trope, there are ways it can be used in conjunction with other tropes that turns it on its head; for instance, The Vamp and the Femme Fatale are two strong female character-types that subvert Real Women Never Wear Dresses — they are more likely to wear a dress than any other outfit, but ignore them as weak or ineffectual at your peril.

edited 17th Feb '11 9:16:49 AM by Madrugada

CaitsMeow Since: Jun, 2009
#3: Feb 17th 2011 at 9:23:41 AM

Alright; that's what I thought it was, especially because I see this attitude in so many fandoms. (This is one of the main reasons I hang out in female-dominated canons where it doesn't come up as frequently.) Ergo, it's not just a dislike of or not wanting to wear skirts, it's the idea that women who present femininely are inherently weaker, right?

edited 17th Feb '11 9:24:04 AM by CaitsMeow

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Feb 17th 2011 at 9:53:47 AM

Right. Women who wear dresses (Skirts are kind of in a limbo, for some reason — let's say "or skirts, in non-Japanese-sourced or -influenced works") are less likely to be accepted as strong.

edited 17th Feb '11 9:53:56 AM by Madrugada

Xandriel Dark Magical Girl Since: Nov, 2010
#5: Feb 22nd 2011 at 1:21:18 PM

Sounds like it's getting flanderised. If she personally doesn't like dresses or have any feminine interests, it's Tomboy or The Lad-ette. It's only Real Women Never Wear Dresses if she thinks all women should be like this, or is presented as superior to feminine women.

What's the point in giving up when you know you'll never stop anyway?
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#6: Feb 22nd 2011 at 2:45:19 PM

[up] I got the impression (at least from cases like Mulan or the Saddest Attempts At Feminism article) that it was more so about fanatical interpretations of feminism taken to the extreme that women who show any trace of behaviour that resembles conventional femininity are interpreted as just "reinforcing gender roles" even if they're relatively diverged from gender roles in comparison to other works.

I mean, Mulan and the examples on that list are closer to "strong female characters" than you usually get, and they are STILL berated for being weak because of feminine traits.

Xandriel Dark Magical Girl Since: Nov, 2010
#7: Feb 22nd 2011 at 3:27:24 PM

[up] Yes it can be that, but it can also happen in-universe, if masculine traits in a woman are presented as ideal. An example would be Ixia And Sitia. The Action Girl is contemptuous of feminine women, never gets called out on it, and she's shown as being better than them.

And yeah, that kind of fan reaction is a major Berserk Button for me, especially if male characters can get away with the same things female characters get bashed for.

edited 22nd Feb '11 3:27:50 PM by Xandriel

What's the point in giving up when you know you'll never stop anyway?
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#8: Feb 22nd 2011 at 3:48:41 PM

"And yeah, that kind of fan reaction is a major Berserk Button for me, especially if male characters can get away with the same things female characters get bashed for." - Xandriel

Well, I'd say that would be more of a Pink Boy, Blue Girl kind of thing, really. If their idea is that characters should diverge from gender roles, feminine guys should be applauded.

That said, I like the way Cliche put it in the Mulan discussion page when saying that he/she was "getting sick of seeing Rule Abiding Rebel applied to everything that doesn't conform 100% to "feminist" expectations"

Xandriel Dark Magical Girl Since: Nov, 2010
#9: Feb 22nd 2011 at 4:09:30 PM

The Double Standard still bugs me. Yeah, I agree that feminine guys should be applauded, but feminine women shouldn't be criticized either. They shouldn't have to be a certain way.

I mean, in one of my favourite shows, a boy and a girl went through pretty much the same Break the Cutie. They both broke down, but ultimately resolved to become stronger, and did. Guess which one lost a lot of fans.

What's the point in giving up when you know you'll never stop anyway?
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#10: Mar 19th 2011 at 5:43:23 AM

Honestly, the entire trope feels more like an opinion piece to me than really a trope. I guess you could say "It just bugs me", because it does veers strongly into the implication that any strong female character is an "offender".

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11: Mar 19th 2011 at 6:03:04 AM

[up]This is what bugs me about it too. Admittedly, looking at the article it's a bit more nuanced than that (it makes clear that it's not saying that female characters should Stay in the Kitchen), but the whole concept is such a Berserk Button for me, I find it hard to read through the article with any attention to detail.

edited 19th Mar '11 6:03:18 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

halfmillennium Since: Dec, 1969
#12: Mar 20th 2011 at 10:56:25 AM

I got the idea it was just a rant which can't decide whether it supports the trope or not.

BigT grimAuxiliatrix Since: Jan, 2001
grimAuxiliatrix
#13: Mar 29th 2011 at 2:01:29 AM

I didn't think this was a character trope at all. It thought it was basically saying that, in most fiction, one cannot be depicted as both feminine and strong. A strong female is almost invariably shown as a Tomboy or Lad-ette. It can't be the Girly Girl who is the strong one.

I don't really think it's a double standard. If a guy is weak but doesn't act girly, he is also disliked. If a guy is weak and acts girly, he's just gay, just like Tomboys are often assumed to be lesbians.

Everyone Has An Important Job To Do
Add Post

Total posts: 13
Top