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DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#151: Feb 17th 2011 at 8:16:01 AM

I also think that the term "rape" suffers a lot from Personal Dictionary, and most of that is very skewed in against men. I have seen girls willingly consent with no pressure/drugs/booze/etc, regret it a week later, and try to cry rape. I've seen girls that try to redefine sexual harassment as rape, then play the victim card. And as Melloncollie said, if men did the same thing, they'd get laughed at.

Why do we, as a culture, expect men to blow it off, and encourage women to wallow in self pity? Women that, for lack of a better term, get over it are not very highly regarded.

This, although it sucks to watch the rapist get away with it.

I don't know the situation, but if she's not affected by it and doesn't want to report it, then why should we care? Maybe it wasn't really rape. Maybe she was drunk and willingly slept with someone. That's considered rape, even if the guy was drunk too.

Would you condemn somebody to sex offender status for making a mutual mistake? Should he be able to charge her for rape too if he was also drunk? Should we make both of them file for sex offender status?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
kashchei Since: May, 2010
#152: Feb 17th 2011 at 8:28:27 AM

"Well, in the context of that kind of approach it would be better to simply say she's very brave for not being utterly destroyed by it.

But yeah, seeing as how rape trauma varies among victims it would be better to stop assuming it to be some universally life-ruining act and start taking into account the role societal attitudes might have in the current level of trauma..."

If you believe the level of trauma to be influenced by societal attitudes, why reinforce the idea that she should have, by default, been "utterly destroyed" by the act?

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#153: Feb 17th 2011 at 8:31:23 AM

"I don't know the situation, but if she's not affected by it and doesn't want to report it, then why should we care?" - Drunk Girlfriend

Because said rapist might do the same to someone else, and reporting him might do that?

In any case, it's refreshing to see a perspective on rape that society probably wouldn't expect women to express. o.o

EDIT: And kashchei, I meant "as opposed to telling her she should be traumatized."

edited 17th Feb '11 8:38:31 AM by neoYTPism

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#154: Feb 17th 2011 at 9:03:53 AM

That's an interesting point. Do we subconsciously reinforce the "horrific nature" of rape by telling women that they ought to be traumatized into catatonia by unwanted sexual encounters? Seems to be reinforcing a very nasty double standard. It also may be a kind of psychological transferrence: I was horribly traumatized by this, so you should be too! (And by extension, there's something wrong with you if you aren't.)

edited 17th Feb '11 9:13:54 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#155: Feb 17th 2011 at 9:52:36 AM

Defiled Forever was always a Pet-Peeve Trope of mine. That's right girls don't bother trying to regain your sexuality. Hell don't bother trying to live a normal live. You have been    RAPED   . Might as well kill yourself right now.

edited 17th Feb '11 9:56:07 AM by joeyjojo

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MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#156: Feb 17th 2011 at 11:00:36 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]In response to your "Why should we care?" Drunk Girlfriend, I was agreeing with Morven's point; the "it sucks" was kind of a sidenote.

Enjoy the Inferno...
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#157: Feb 17th 2011 at 8:09:08 PM

@Fighteer:

Do we subconsciously reinforce the "horrific nature" of rape by telling women that they ought to be traumatized into catatonia by unwanted sexual encounters?

Yes we do, and it's unfortunate. I've seen it happen way too many times, and it frustrates me to no end every time I do. If someone merely feels slightly uncomfortable/regretful about an act they committed, how does it serve to spin that into a rape scenario?

The answer is that it doesn't. Such dilutes the claims of actual rape victims, wrongfully jails innocent people (to say nothing of basically making them wear a scarlet letter for the rest of their natural lives), and causes the supposed "victim" needless discomfort and angst.

EDIT: Oh, and [down][awesome][down]. Nice job breaking it, indeed. [lol]

edited 17th Feb '11 8:39:52 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Newfable Since: Feb, 2011
#158: Feb 17th 2011 at 8:38:08 PM

Yes we do, and it's unfortunate.
Hell, damn near every movie made on or for Lifetime is centered around this horrific kind of rape. With the rape victim always being female. Aren’t they supposed to be a channel for the empowerment of women?

edited 17th Feb '11 8:38:27 PM by Newfable

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#159: Feb 18th 2011 at 7:15:34 AM

And as Melloncollie said, if men did the same thing, they'd get laughed at.

Actually, while men are less likely to report rape, when they do report it to the authorities they are more likely to believed, and have a higher conviction rate.

And the Personal Dictionary cuts both ways. "She slept with me last night, so it's okay to do it to her now." "She's my wife, I have a right." And the good old "She was dressed like a slut, what I was supposed to think."

Should he be able to charge her for rape too if he was also drunk?

If he doesn't believe it was consensual, yes. He has just as much right to as she does. But like you said, if he doesn't want to report it, why should we care?

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Kashie Since: Jan, 2011
#160: Feb 18th 2011 at 7:33:10 AM

"Actually, while men are less likely to report rape, when they do report it to the authorities they are more likely to believed, and have a higher conviction rate."

Is this just men attacked by women or is it including male on male rape? My preconceived notion is that women accused would be given the least attention, and that male on male rape would get more attention for investigation. A quick google search hasn't found a US woman be convicted of raping an adult man, but there are a couple from overseas. I vaguely remember a Law and Order episode which I thought claimed that no US woman has ever been convicted of forcibly raping an adult, so I'm curious.

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#161: Feb 18th 2011 at 8:33:30 AM

I'm not sure about conviction rates, but I'll quote part of the section on females accused:

Neither SOCAU nor CIU members expressed any level of disbelief toward the allegations made against female offenders. One case resulted in NFPA, two cases were noted as still ongoing and charges were laid in two cases. There were no withdrawn complaints.

There was one female-on-male case, and four female-on-female. Plus seven cases where they were considered to be "secondary offenders" to a male accused of rape. 0.6% of accusations made were against women.

Overall, two charges for five women gives a 40% figure of accused women getting charged. Charges against men in this study were 15% of those accused. Admittedly, the female sample is very small which biases the numbers. Male-on-male rape apparently proceeds to charges in 27% of the cases.

This study is my data source.

edited 18th Feb '11 8:35:51 AM by Drakyndra

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DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#162: Feb 18th 2011 at 9:28:53 AM

Dexter is one of the most lauded shows on TV today, but nobody accuses America of having a murder culture. There is no show that portrays rape the way Dexter portrays murder - but, you see, rape, unlike murder, is a crime we're told to have a hair-trigger about. It's bullshit, frankly.

Hail Martin Septim!
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#163: Feb 18th 2011 at 9:34:38 AM

I somehow doubt that everyone who has PTSD to such a degree has it because others told them they were supposed to.

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#164: Feb 18th 2011 at 9:45:32 AM

You'd probably also have PTSD from getting robbed at gunpoint, but nobody talks about Triggers for robbery.

Hail Martin Septim!
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#165: Feb 18th 2011 at 9:50:25 AM

Armed robbery is much less common than rape. It's also much less gendered, which is one of the big issues here. Rape is a crime carried out disproportionately by an overclass against an underclass. That's pretty damn political.

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#166: Feb 18th 2011 at 9:53:17 AM

Now I'm wondering how frequently armed robbery is done by people close to the victim...

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#167: Feb 18th 2011 at 9:56:51 AM

Nor is armed robbery a violent perversion of something that is normally used to express profound affection and intimacy. I think that's why it tends to be so traumatic.

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#168: Feb 18th 2011 at 9:57:43 AM

So you're saying that a crime isn't as serious if it doesn't involve class warfare? Say, somebody conducting a drive-by shooting on somebody of the same gender, race and wealth isn't as serious a crime as a white guy shooting a black guy from his car? No, damnit - one cold-blooded murder is as unjust as another.

Hail Martin Septim!
Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#169: Feb 18th 2011 at 10:05:39 AM

[up]

Not so frequently, but most of the murders are by people you know. Almost all serious fraud. Most assaults and almost all serious injuries are inflicted by people you know. In my entire career I can say that of the hundreds of people who have been shot or stabbed who have ended up in my care two of them we're honestly clueless as to who did this to them.

Honestly speaking rape takes people differently. I have seen reactions as diverse as near mental break down to anger to a curious lack of reaction. Some people you can tell will be okay in a month, or less, some will never heal and some won't care tomorrow. Generally people who are of the more affluent classes and come from privileged backgrounds take all forms of violence, domestic, sexual or other much worse. People who have been getting kicked around for most of their lives don't really care as much when they get shafted one more time. The real damage is the loss of control, to people who feel that they have very little control to begin with then the insult of a sexual assault is completely in the physical damage.

Sadly the most severe reactions come from the most trivial of assaults. I remember one girl who was gang raped having less of a freak out than a woman whose boyfriend almost hit her. Major difference? One of them had been getting screwed for a long long time.

People can survive and adapt to anything. Rape included. It's power over you is defined by you. Unlike for example, having your liver carved out with a butchers knife.

edited 18th Feb '11 10:06:25 AM by Shrimpus

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#170: Feb 18th 2011 at 10:11:52 AM

Dexter is one of the most lauded shows on TV today, but nobody accuses America of having a murder culture. There is no show that portrays rape the way Dexter portrays murder - but, you see, rape, unlike murder, is a crime we're told to have a hair-trigger about. It's bullshit, frankly.
The difference is that there is a good chance that some one watching the show has actually been raped. It's highly unlikely that they have been murdered.

edited 18th Feb '11 10:14:19 AM by joeyjojo

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Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#171: Feb 18th 2011 at 10:18:11 AM

[up] This seems to imply murder is a lesser crime than rape because glamorizing it can't, by definition, cause emotional distress to victims.

Which then implies that crimes are ranked on therapeutic criteria.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#172: Feb 18th 2011 at 10:18:51 AM

It's a comparable chance that someone close to them has been murdered, though, no?

Hail Martin Septim!
Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#173: Feb 18th 2011 at 10:19:47 AM

[up][up][up] By a very loose definition of rape. So loose as to render it essentially meaningless. I offer no defense to date rape or the various scuzzy forms of sexual conduct but it is kinda like lumping the bay of pigs with the rape of Nanking because they are both invasions.

edited 18th Feb '11 10:20:21 AM by Shrimpus

LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#174: Feb 18th 2011 at 3:57:10 PM

My thoughts on this, copypasta'd from my Y!A account

There are some cultures that can be described as "rape cultures," such as Afghanistan under Taliban rule and similar, mostly middle-eastern countries. Japan is also somewhat like that, with the game rapelay and the expectation that women who are sexually harassed on public transit or at work shouldn't report it.

But modern countries in the western world? Certainly not rape cultures. Most people in western countries see rape as the worst thing that can happen to a person, and the laws surrounding rape allegations are set up to protect the accuser more than the accused.

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#175: Feb 18th 2011 at 4:14:02 PM

"I somehow doubt that everyone who has PTSD to such a degree has it because others told them they were supposed to." - English Ivy

I don't think the argument was so much that they were "told they were supposed to" as that rape is regarded as an inherently life-ruining act when there are victims who don't feel nearly that devastated.

Some point out that it depends on what else the victims has been through in their lives, I'd say it might also depend on the victim's prior attitudes towards sexuality, or towards dating, or whatever may happen in the victim's mind to be connected to rape. The idea that social attitudes towards rape may be part of the trauma should probably be more thoroughly looked into.


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