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Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#126: Feb 15th 2011 at 6:39:28 PM

I don't want people to go all Oh God What Have I Done and gas themselves over this. I just want people to know that they might be closer to this 'ultimate evil that no normal person will ever encounter' then they think.

You know, awareness and all that. Not sweeping it under the rug far from your bed.

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#127: Feb 15th 2011 at 6:50:38 PM

@Jordan: What about them? I need data to form any opinion.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#128: Feb 15th 2011 at 6:54:57 PM

Hahaha right. Because admitting a heinous crime to ideologues on a promise of reconciliation worked so well in the last century.
Really? "Admit a heinous crime to ideologues" is seriously the only message you got from that? No other interpretations come to mind?

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#129: Feb 15th 2011 at 7:10:08 PM

"Especially in a country and culture where the young are encouraged to go out, party, get wasted, try all sorts of hallucinogenic drugs" - Newfable

Encouraged by whom? The education system sure doesn't encourage it.

Newfable Since: Feb, 2011
#130: Feb 15th 2011 at 7:23:40 PM

[up]Of course the education system wouldn’t encourage it. But the general consensus made by the general public is that the youth should be enjoying their youth. This isn’t so bad, but the youth determine the “best” way to do that. Of course it differs from person to person.

College culture seems to be the biggest supporter of such a general idea, but again, that’s speaking in broad terms. The encouragement of the what comes from what’s considered popular at the time, not the nearby social system that seems more closely associated with said assumption than any other social system.

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#131: Feb 15th 2011 at 7:27:27 PM

[up][up] I gotta agree. I don't really get the idea that society encourages this (certainly not the hallucinogenic drugs part).

I do think that you can see some "rape culture" in the claim that there's some massive amount of women crying rape out of malice because they regret a consensual sexual encounter.

Hodor
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#132: Feb 15th 2011 at 7:29:52 PM

Whoops, nevermind, didn't mean to post.

edited 15th Feb '11 7:30:34 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#133: Feb 15th 2011 at 7:32:14 PM

"I do think that you can see some "rape culture" in the claim that there's some massive amount of women crying rape out of malice because they regret a consensual sexual encounter." - Jordan

Number of women aside, though, it's still an issue that attention needs to be brought to because it DOES happen, and clearly ruins lives. There are cases where accusations of rape that actually led to a conviction were later proven wrong through video evidence. Consider that most people accused of rape AREN'T found guilty, and one has to wonder just how common false rape accusations are...

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#134: Feb 15th 2011 at 7:39:54 PM

Do you assume that for other crimes when someone's found not guilty that means the accuser must have been lying?

Hodor
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#135: Feb 15th 2011 at 7:46:06 PM

"Do you assume that for other crimes when someone's found not guilty that means the accuser must have been lying?" - Jordan

Note that I didn't say this meant the accuser was lying, even for this crime. Once again you frame my posts as saying things they didn't say.

In any case, there's probably plenty of other crimes people have been falsely accused of without said false accusation being disproven, but the damage to one's reputation from accusations of these "other crimes" tends not to be as severe.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#136: Feb 15th 2011 at 8:01:58 PM

Accusations of rape tend to be devastating for both accuser and accused. In many cases, the accuser is traumatized even in the absence of a provable crime. In others, the accuser is trying to get revenge of some sort, or has been convinced by others that a crime occurred. Contrariwise, there are indeed subcultures that downplay rape accusations or even punish the victims; the U.S. military is constantly accused of this despite token efforts at reform.

In the "college party" subculture, you might not even know you were raped if you were sufficiently drugged/drunk, relying on the dubious assertions of others, or seeing yourself on someone's Internet video.

Familial rape has to be the hardest to deal with, though, because it's not only implicitly a betrayal by those closest to you, but it can take years to gather the courage to speak about it and doing so often brands you a traitor within your own family.

I don't agree that there is a "rape culture". What I do agree is that rape has many facets and few of them are easily dealt with.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#137: Feb 15th 2011 at 8:11:04 PM

Well put, Fighteer.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#138: Feb 15th 2011 at 8:50:22 PM

Encouraged by whom? The education system sure doesn't encourage it. - neo YT
I don't really get the idea that society encourages this (certainly not the hallucinogenic drugs part). - Jordan
Hollywood seems to make it a big part of various movies - Sex Drive, Beerfest, American Pie, and Hunter Thompson's book/movie, just to name a few. In all of them, getting drunk, laid, and possibly wasted, are the central part of the plot.

Contrariwise, there are indeed subcultures that downplay rape accusations or even punish the victims; the U.S. military is constantly accused of this despite token efforts at reform. - Fighteer
If the amount of training we get about sexual assault is a good yardstick, then those efforts are anything but token.  really long tangent

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#139: Feb 16th 2011 at 9:11:36 AM

"Hollywood seems to make it a big part of various movies - Sex Drive, Beerfest, American Pie, and Hunter Thompson's book/movie, just to name a few. In all of them, getting drunk, laid, and possibly wasted, are the central part of the plot." - Blue Ninja

That's probably only because it's profitable to sell movies like that for whatever reason though. In any case, I could imagine those kinds of movies would tend to be condemned by Moral Guardians...

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#140: Feb 16th 2011 at 9:13:26 AM

Ever since the Hays Code disappeared, filmmaking has seen fit to explore some of the less nice areas of our society. The Moral Guardians will continue to be outraged - so be it.

Also I don't recall the moral of American Pie being that these things are necessarily okay.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Newfable Since: Feb, 2011
#141: Feb 16th 2011 at 9:57:43 AM

I never meant that these mediums of media outright say that all of this is alright and acceptable, but that it presupposes that it is. It's like an agreement that no one agreed upon, in that American society (here meaning the vast majority of popular thought in any given culture) accepts these kinds of behaviors, but will never outright support them.

Furthermore, these kinds of things weren't popular years ago, which may make such things fads. If that's the case, then they certainly don't follow any sort of logic whatsoever, since most fads I've seen just tend to grow on their own based on "what's popular".

I don't know about rape culture, but I'd say public opinion on rape falls into the same thought patterns in the same ways. On the whole, people just don't think about it, for various reasons. But the general opinion is that it's horrific, and only horrible people do it. The terrible ramifications of accepting such a thought is obvious, just as obvious as making such a statement as my previous one, which can be substantiated by simply reviewing some opinions towards rape made earlier in this thread.

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#142: Feb 16th 2011 at 12:16:08 PM

"But the general opinion is that it's horrific, and only horrible people do it. The terrible ramifications of accepting such a thought is obvious, just as obvious as making such a statement as my previous one, which can be substantiated by simply reviewing some opinions towards rape made earlier in this thread." - Newfable

What do you mean?

Newfable Since: Feb, 2011
#143: Feb 16th 2011 at 6:19:36 PM

It’s been said earlier in this thread that by believing that rape is horrible, horrific, and only performable by the spawn of the Devil himself, it mystifies the whole experience. Of course, rape is horrible, but by building up so much emotion behind it, people fail to see that rape is remarkably common, more so than most people would think, which may in fact be the most terrifying thing about rape and the general public’s idea about it.

Rape is horrible yes, but we need to be aware of how common it is so we know how to handle it and prevent it.

Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#144: Feb 16th 2011 at 6:49:15 PM

[up]

Met some victims who were devastated. Met some that didn't really care. Once met a woman who couldn't be bothered to go to the hospital to get a rape kit done, it was like she and I were speaking different languages. I she was saying rape and was talking about forced sexual penetration but the meaning she was conveying more akin to some creepy guy kissing her cheek.

Signed Always Right Since: Dec, 2009
Always Right
#145: Feb 16th 2011 at 11:01:51 PM

^ That's just sexual harassment at worst...

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."
melloncollie Since: Feb, 2012
#146: Feb 16th 2011 at 11:23:45 PM

I'm kinda not really well informed on this, but here goes.

I do think that there's a "rape culture" centered on men. A woman forcing herself on a man is either viewed as comedy, or you're supposed to say "what a lucky guy, he's so ungrateful/stupid for protesting."

And some people believe that it's impossible for a man to get raped, because you can't have sex with a squishy cock and if he gets aroused then obviously he wants sex. I would think that at least 50% of the population would be experts on how male sexual arousal works, but I guess not...

Is this supposed to be some kind of society-wide mental conditioning to avoid trauma? "I got violated, and it was totally awesome." Should we encourage this in women as well?

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#147: Feb 16th 2011 at 11:26:09 PM

[up][up] No, I believe Shrimpus was saying the women was raped but that she did not take it any more seriously then if it was a Forceful Kiss.

edited 16th Feb '11 11:42:11 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#148: Feb 17th 2011 at 12:24:22 AM

Is there any point in making someone who's experienced something see it as worse than they do? The only point I can see is that of trying to catch the perpetrator before they do it again, probably to someone more vulnerable.

I don't see it does that woman you're talking about any favors to try and convince her that it must have been horrible and that she's wrong for not being utterly destroyed by it.

@Mellon: the idea that one cannot become physically — or even mentally! — aroused by something that's still horrific is a very poisonous one.

edited 17th Feb '11 12:25:36 AM by Morven

A brighter future for a darker age.
MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#149: Feb 17th 2011 at 6:43:31 AM

I don't see it does that woman you're talking about any favors to try and convince her that it must have been horrible and that she's wrong for not being utterly destroyed by it.

This, although it sucks to watch the rapist get away with it.

Enjoy the Inferno...
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#150: Feb 17th 2011 at 7:44:54 AM

"I don't see it does that woman you're talking about any favors to try and convince her that it must have been horrible and that she's wrong for not being utterly destroyed by it." - Morven

Well, in the context of that kind of approach it would be better to simply say she's very brave for not being utterly destroyed by it.

But yeah, seeing as how rape trauma varies among victims it would be better to stop assuming it to be some universally life-ruining act and start taking into account the role societal attitudes might have in the current level of trauma...


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