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Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#526: Mar 4th 2011 at 3:22:55 PM

Yeah, I have to admit that I don't know how well supported if at all that contention is, although it would seem like common sense to me.

Hodor
del_diablo Den harde nordmann from Somewher in mid Norway Since: Sep, 2009
Den harde nordmann
#527: Mar 4th 2011 at 3:34:26 PM

Tongpu: That looks good, I think it would have a impact on the statistic...... \\

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
PDown It's easy, mmkay? Since: Jan, 2012
It's easy, mmkay?
#528: Mar 4th 2011 at 5:21:51 PM

The things I find obnoxious are the feminists who continually try to redefine rape. Yes, I damn well understand that it doesn't matter whether you kidnap her or attack her in a dark alley or if you're already her boyfriend. It's when they add extra little clauses like "It's rape if you asked her to have sex more than once" or "It's rape if she later decides she regretted it" or "It's rape if she expresses anxiety but consents anyways" that I get pissed.

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#530: Mar 4th 2011 at 5:41:08 PM

@P Down: Whlle nothing you described is necessarily rape, I think the idea behind those is that pressuring a woman into sex is rape.

Arguing isn't  *

, but threats are, and sometimes people will do one and then fall into the other.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think any honest feminist has ever said it's rape if she later regrets the sex.

edited 4th Mar '11 5:42:07 PM by BlackHumor

Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#531: Mar 4th 2011 at 5:54:40 PM

Kara, Oh good lord. Lets look at a fictional though experiment and use that to deteermine our rape policy. What on earth was I thinking. Using reality? Pshaw, what a foolish and simple notion that is. It is stories that are causing rape not penises.

Lemme break something down.

Your premise assumes that people aren't pattern finding engines. It is not our culture that causes us to seek out reasons for events coming to pass, it is our nature. You could have told that story with any two characters and any two endings and people would have found a reason why tradgedy befell one and not the other. We exist to find explainations. To fit things into the box of our experience. This is an amazingly powerful tool but one that can easily be led astray if you do not understand it's tendancies.

And Exclaimation mark. I am not saying that men are inherently monsters. I am saying that humans are inherently changable and that we are very often defined by

edited 4th Mar '11 5:57:30 PM by Shrimpus

Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#532: Mar 4th 2011 at 5:57:59 PM

[up][up][up][up]Yeah, that's obnoxious. Fortunately, none of those particular kinds of feminists have posted in this thread, so it's not something we need to deal with.

edited 4th Mar '11 5:58:17 PM by Tongpu

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#533: Mar 4th 2011 at 5:59:19 PM

The thing you need to understand, P Down, is that women live under the threat of rape and sexual assault and they know it. If you badger a woman until she gives in, you have no way of knowing whether a) she legitimately changed her mind and just needs to work up her enthusiasm, b) she's doing you a favor even though she doesn't feel like it, or c) she's worried that you're about to get violent. The latter case is what makes that sort of behavior on a man's part "rapey" even if it isn't technically rape.

And really, what kind of person enjoys sex with a partner who isn't into it? Why would you push for it? That betrays a rapist-like mentality right there.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#534: Mar 4th 2011 at 6:00:00 PM

[up][up][up] So that basically means that, yes, you could be entirely wrong when you say that all rapes you're seen are caused by the victim's carelessness. You're a pattern-finding organism, so therefore the conculsions you've drawn from your experiences may be incorrect.

edited 4th Mar '11 6:00:12 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#535: Mar 4th 2011 at 6:21:37 PM

@Shripus: ...yes, exactly. That's exactly the point.

It's called the just world bias. People want to think they have control over the world, which leads them to want to think that the world is just.

One consequence of this is that when you hear about a raped woman, you are able to make up a reason why she was raped, which you wouldn't identify in a story about anything else. The point of coming up with the reason is to make the rape "just", and thus reinforce your view of the world as controllable.

A quality of truly stupid things is that they seem stupid in the absence of any consequences. If I tell you a story about a man who wins the lottery because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, you could still tell that it was stupid to do that back when he didn't know he'd win the lottery because of it. If I tell you a story about a guy who wears a solid gold suit into the hood and emerges perfectly fine, you will still be able to tell me it's stupid to wear a solid gold suit into the hood.

However, if I tell you a story about a guy who enters an intersection at a yellow light, you won't be able to tell me it's stupid until I end it by having some idiot in the other direction plow into him. The reason is it was never stupid; it only seems stupid if you start with the conclusion that the guy must've been stupid and then start searching for the stupid thing he must've done.

EDIT: Or what Loni Jay said. That works too.

edited 4th Mar '11 6:22:47 PM by BlackHumor

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#536: Mar 4th 2011 at 6:51:40 PM

The thing you need to understand, P Down, is that women live under the threat of rape and sexual assault and they know it. If you badger a woman until she gives in, you have no way of knowing whether a) she legitimately changed her mind and just needs to work up her enthusiasm, b) she's doing you a favor even though she doesn't feel like it, or c) she's worried that you're about to get violent. The latter case is what makes that sort of behavior on a man's part "rapey" even if it isn't technically rape.

I have to agreed with Karalora on this one. Even if the sex is outright 'I Spit On Your Grave' level violation there are still actions that a 'playa' will typically use that are uncomfortably rape-like. Even if it's just the time honored tactic of getting a bottle of wine into her.

This excerpt from the Manhattan Spirit has a man looking back regretfully at such underhandedness of his younger days.

edited 4th Mar '11 6:53:54 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#537: Mar 4th 2011 at 7:50:55 PM

Okay, so I am tired of having to explain the same concept seven times in different ways. I am tired of being misquoted and quoted out of context. I am pretty darn sick of repeating myself. But because I am apparently the sort of person who really really enjoys doing this I am going to sit down and actually outline what I am trying to communicate.

GOAL 1: Reduce the INCIDENCE of Rape and a Violent Crime and Rape as a coercive crime

GOAL 2: Reduce the impact of Rape on it's victims by reducing the stigma attached

note- these are two seperate theses but are only tangentially interlinked. Where means conducive to one goal are destructive to another GOAL 1, the reduction of new victims takes precedent over the care and therapy of victims. GOAL 2.

MEANS: Modification of perpetrator behavior. Modification of potential victim behavior. Modification of environment.

The primary focus of any attempt to reduce any form of crime is environmental modification. This includes but is not limited to, physical alteration of a given space (more lighting, more cameras). Enforced changes to the culture that surrounds an environment. Reduction in late night partying through police action. Reduction in alcohol availability. Changing social or economic status of an location or neighborhood. Increasing the physical presence of authority figures. The key point of environmental modifications is that they offer no choice to either victim or perpetrator and force a change in behavior. Proper law enforcement with sufficient manpower falls within this category.

Secondary focus is on education and proper inculcation of potential victims. The potential victim has a strong motivation to avoid becoming a victim. There is a reasonable chance that education of the victim can make an impression and the low hanging fruit of risk factors can be gained. Extreme behavior modification is both impossible and unwise.

Tertiary is the attempt to modify the behavior of the perpetrator. The perpetrator has a positive motivation to commit the rape. It is an action that is inherently beneficial to him. Therefore motivating him to not commit the crime is an lopsided conflict. Penalties for his behaviors fall within this category. Generally the attempts aim at adults, which is a double problem. Proper education of the perpetrator would be best aimed at those who are not already essentially neurally set. Proper education would target children.

Underlaying Assumptions:

1. That any form of violent crime or accident is statistically reducible by removing co morbid factors. This has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It is the fundamental principle of medicine, epidemiology and law enforcement. It is not subject to debate.

2. That human beings are reactive to their environment. A man in a war will become a warrior. A man in peace will become peaceful. A man at work will be productive. A person is not a single personality or mode of action but is instead a chimera of modii. Each appropriate to a different setting. By regulating setting you can regulate behavior. This is a debatable point. It has been shown to be true in a variety of studies but it is close enough to the edge that there is still time for it to be proven false.

Now. I am going to do my level best not to hiss and spit and field the various objections.

Stupid Exclamation Mark, I am not saying men are all rapists. I am not saying that we are beasts. I am saying that people as a group are not automatically good. I am saying that human beings are not definable as good or evil and that people often do not know what they are capable or willing to do until the moment is upon them. It is better to avoid having to test someones virtue than it is to rely on it being solid. In fact I am actually saying that it is probably quite possible for someone to rape and still be a good person in many respects. Much like it is possible for people to kill and not be turned into slavering demons.

Black Humor, -The use of the word tech was poor. The appropriate word is development. And higher levels of civil society is exactly the reason why we don't murder. Part of that society is within us but the vast majority of it comes from without. Given an absence of social order people regress remarkably quickly.

-I won't apologize for calling you on using absurd extrapolations. I will apologize for tone.

-I do not believe in a just world. I believe in a horrible absurdest place where terrible things happen for little or no reason. I do not need to dream up reasons to explain why bad things happen to people because I fundamentally do not care for reasons. Here is a demonstrative example.

'Man A is sitting in his car driving to a party. A stray bullet punches through the door of his vehicle and puts four holes in him. Two on the top of each thigh. Man B, is in town to visit his cousins. He is sitting on the corner when a rival dealer competing with his cousin walks up an opens fire, he is shot once in the leg and grazed once on the hip. Man C, is shot once by a large caliber weapon while standing in front of a cop car with two cops sitting in the car. The bullet passes through the palm of his hand tunnels through the fore arm and then penetrates his lung. He has five holes in him and is on the verge of death. In his pocket is twelve thousand dollars in crumpled twenties and tens rolled up, and a medicaid card.'

Only one of these people had a real hand in his own damnation. Guess.

Jordan, The original three steps which have been now boiled down to everyone bitching about "don't invite strange men into your home" was originally a five minute attempt at distilling a "potential victim education curriculum". I have no proof that is the most effective way to teach the lesson or even if it is the best way to modify risk. It was an eyeball solution.

Shimaspawn, those studies do not say what you think they say and even if they do I don't propose to yell at victims in the town square for dressing like a whore and inviting satans gaze on themselves. Therapy is an intensely private thing. I shared once that I find kind reassurances to be the best battlefield triage and I would never and have never berated the victim. The point is not to even address the victim as it is already too late. It is to address the behaviors and environments of potential victims.

Loni, This is the part of my quote you neglected to include,

"This is an amazingly powerful tool but one that can easily be led astray if you do not understand it's tendencies."

- One of the major points I have tried to understand over the years is where my perceptions meet my assumptions. Understanding the circumstances under which instinct can help and emotional decision making is a core function of my job. I killed a man once because I refused to listen to a growling instinct and instead let other people steamroll me. I am going to carry that for the rest of my life. Not the man, I don't even dream about him, I was younger and very new. It was a forgivable error but one that demanded it not be repeated. Know when your animal instincts and desire to recognize a pattern is getting the best of you is a core skill for a diagnostician. It is fun to see ghosts in your twelve leads but the real skill comes from figuring out when your mind is playing tricks and when there really is something in the closet.

Black Humor, Again. You know that New York is the jay walking capital of the US? Any man who walks into the street during a yellow light and gets hit is a moron. Why? Not because of the yellow light. But because he wasn't looking. Because he didn't properly realize that he was entering into a zone of increased danger and raise his environmental awareness commensurately. We walk on red all the time. But NO ONE walks on red without looking and making sure they can make it.

It is actually more common for people to be struck on a green light by a right turning car coming from behind because they aren't paying attention because things are 'supposed' to be safe. Part of the reason why you should always check both ways even if the light is green.

But you want to know something hilarious? The highest fatality roads in the New York City Area are in order The Hempstead Turnpike, Queens Boulevard and Grand Concourse. What they all have in common is that they are greater than six lane city roads with average speeds of greater than 50 MPH and prolonged pedestrian crossings. Of those roads the Hempstead Turnpike is in the most residential, outside of the city proper, sedate environment. Because of it's out of city status most people assume that it is safer than a city road and are hit due to lack of attention. The increased speed merely ups the fatality rate.

edited 4th Mar '11 7:59:09 PM by Shrimpus

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#538: Mar 4th 2011 at 8:02:09 PM

I still don't think you've adressed the point that we were making. You claim that you can see a pattern, and that pattern is that women who are raped did something that brought the rape on themsleves.

But what makes you think that this is a pattern that actually exists, as opposed to one that you see because we evolved to see patterns?

The thought study that was brought up earlier, which you rapidly dismissed, was suggesting just that.

Be not afraid...
Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#539: Mar 4th 2011 at 8:04:34 PM

My objection to the thought study is that it is simply showing a generalized weakness in human psychology not a rape specific one.

My point to you is that while that is a generalized problem it is not one that is overwhelming. Alot of people spend alot of time trying to get over that. They are called scientists.

No offense but I would be an incredibly poor human being and a terrible medic if I couldn't recognize and cope with real patterns of behavior as opposed to imagined ones. The sad truth is that there aren't that many stories. I can generally write out a complaint before I even talk to a patient and the details will be between 80% and 90% correct. Especially with some of the more stock call types.

For example 16-25 year old female calling for infant male/female aged 0-24 months c/o fever and cough x1 day with possible vomiting. When asked mother will not know the temperature due to lack of thermometer. Grandmother is currently not present. When asked if baby was given anything mother will respond with a. No, b. Yes I gave motrin six hours ago and the fever went down but now it is back up, c. I gave it when I called you. No pertinant medical history. Born without compromise. Up to date on immunizations. NKDA. First or second child.

That is almost certainly going to be an accurate report for a certain call in a certain area. Variances in the pattern stick out like sore thumbs and are often signs of a more serious ailment.

edited 4th Mar '11 8:12:11 PM by Shrimpus

Usht Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard from an arbitrary view point. Since: Feb, 2011
Lv. 3 Genasi Wizard
#540: Mar 5th 2011 at 6:32:02 AM

I should really change my avatar from being Pyramid Head before enter this topic, but then again, if you saw the comic in question that it's from, the point is moot.

But hopping in for a moment to mention a few things I've read on this topic direct from the FBI:

Many of the claimed rapes in the United States do not qualify as rape in the legal system. This is basically due to a few women, who after consenting to have sex with a man decided to sue him afterward because she got pregnant or had a fear of catching an STD. This has caused many of the statistics on rape to be slanted saying that the victims never get justice when there was no justice to apply in the first place.

Just as easily on the other hand, women who are victims of violent rape never report it due to being traumatized. This means that many potentially easy to solve and convict cases go under the carpet every year due to the victim not speaking out.

Further still, most women who were violently raped that had called the police were typically in what the police reported to be sensible clothes. The rapists involved in violent rape crimes, on the other hand, were of all sorts of ages, backgrounds, and ethnicities (including married), meaning that no man is anymore likely to be a rapist than any other.

I could add more, but I would strongly recommend people take a look at the Federal Bureau of Investigation site, they have A LOT on this topic and the data changes from year to year, so what I may have just put could be currently false.[[/disclaimer]]

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#541: Mar 5th 2011 at 7:03:26 AM

Black Humor, -The use of the word tech was poor. The appropriate word is development. And higher levels of civil society is exactly the reason why we don't murder. Part of that society is within us but the vast majority of it comes from without. Given an absence of social order people regress remarkably quickly.

I disagree with that last line but I can't prove it so I'll bow out here.

I do not believe in a just world. I believe in a horrible absurdest place where terrible things happen for little or no reason. I do not need to dream up reasons to explain why bad things happen to people because I fundamentally do not care for reasons. Here is a demonstrative example [etc.]

I never accused you of consciously thinking the world is just. The just world bias a part of human psychology, you can't really get over it without becoming a chinchilla.

Also, I honestly cannot tell from the details if it's Man B's fault for visiting his drug dealer cousin, or Man C's fault for (seeming to be) messing with the cops. By the additional detail you've got in Man C's story I'm guessing you think it's Man C, but it's somewhat less certain that Man C did something stupid (besides stealing that shit) than Man B.

So final verdict, none of them did anything stupid 'till I have further evidence.

Black Humor, Again. You know that New York is the jay walking capital of the US? Any man who walks into the street during a yellow light and gets hit is a moron. Why? Not because of the yellow light. But because he wasn't looking. Because he didn't properly realize that he was entering into a zone of increased danger and raise his environmental awareness commensurately. We walk on red all the time. But NO ONE walks on red without looking and making sure they can make it.

Walks? Drives. I believe I said drives pretty clearly. (EDIT: No I did not, I said "enters". Sorry, I meant "drives".)

Anyways, yes, not looking carefully is sometimes dangerous. But I challenge you to look carefully in both directions at 30 mph.

edited 5th Mar '11 7:04:03 AM by BlackHumor

Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#542: Mar 5th 2011 at 8:26:38 AM

The only one of the three that had a true chance to change what happened was C. The missing variable is age. Man B is 15 years old up with his mother to visit their aunt. The point is that for whatever reason Man C was not shot randomly. He was shot with intent. A man shot in front of a cop car by someone is not being shot randomly. Of the three only C has an extra comorbid factor for gun violence. Being engaged in some form of most likely drug related criminal activity. For the rest it is merely their presence in the neighborhood that is comorbid with being shot. And generally people cannot choose where they live due to societal factors. Though oddly enough both A and B were not from the area. A was visiting from the bronx to party and B was coming in from georgia. Though of course both shootings took place on a saturday night. Which in the hood is a risk factor all of its own.

EDIT: Oh and driving through a yellow is a different set of risks for a car. The actual modifying danger is not the absence of a green light for you, it is the presence of a green light for the crossing traffic. Running a yellow light is not actually a huge danger. Generally speaking there is about a two second delay between a light turning red and the transverse light going green. From there it is anywhere from 2-3 seconds for the lead driver in a lane to react. This can go down but the actual effect is that a yellow light is not a real risk for car. By design. The actual highest risk scenario for running a yellow into red light is when the transverse lanes are empty. If there are cars in these lanes then there is a start from zero and you have plenty of time to clear the intersection. The danger is when the transverse lanes are empty as a car cold be approaching at 60 miles an hour from beyond your vision and will shoot out into the lane just as the light turns.

Hence why EVOC courses teach that empty side streets should be treated with more caution than full ones.

edited 5th Mar '11 8:33:56 AM by Shrimpus

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#543: Mar 5th 2011 at 8:44:17 AM

...why are we talking about the details of my example? I don't think it really deserved that much analysis.

Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#544: Mar 5th 2011 at 8:56:10 AM

I live to spread knowledge. Plus poor corollaries are damaging to everyone in an argument if they go undissected.

edited 5th Mar '11 8:56:19 AM by Shrimpus

del_diablo Den harde nordmann from Somewher in mid Norway Since: Sep, 2009
Den harde nordmann
#545: Mar 5th 2011 at 9:11:45 AM

Loni Jay: Read what he says, and then interprent it. Say what you interprent it as, and then give him the chance of doubt. You could be wrong.

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
del_diablo Den harde nordmann from Somewher in mid Norway Since: Sep, 2009
Den harde nordmann
#546: Mar 5th 2011 at 9:16:51 AM

Usht: What if women where taught to fight back with... a lead pipe if they get properly compromized. Would it have a impact on the rape statistic?

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
del_diablo Den harde nordmann from Somewher in mid Norway Since: Sep, 2009
Den harde nordmann
#547: Mar 5th 2011 at 9:17:53 AM

Shrimpus: Is it the law enforcements fault for not properly attempting to clean the streets, and not properly attempting to keep up the gun ban?

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#548: Mar 5th 2011 at 9:19:32 AM

I don't think that deserved three posts.

del_diablo Den harde nordmann from Somewher in mid Norway Since: Sep, 2009
Den harde nordmann
#549: Mar 5th 2011 at 9:22:25 AM

[up]: Forum has not delete button, and no multipost merger.... :( And I can't read the topic and make a post in the same tab. And you are indeed correct.
I really just wanted to test it out.

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#550: Mar 5th 2011 at 9:37:57 AM

Hell yes it is law enforcements fault. Or rather, it is their responsibility. But it is our fault, the taxpayer and the voter for allowing politics and dogma to rule the discourse. Good policing like any good emergency service requires latitude, time, oversight, reduction of red tape and most importantly MONEY. You need manpower and overtime to do the things that go beyond simply putting out fires. A good community outreach program and a beat cop who has time to stand on a couple of street corners and really get to know a stretch of some ten blocks with all the personalities will do more to control crime than ten prowlers waiting for the 10-85. Likewise for the medical field. To much of our money goes to dog piling emergencies and not enough goes to preventing them in the first place. You could probably do more for the system by parking an ambulance with a big sign on it that says "Free Medical Advice" and opening the back than sending that same bus back into the system. Though of course you still need the emergency system.


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