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Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#501: Mar 4th 2011 at 5:55:39 AM

And do you know why murder rates are down? Do you think that it is because of all that stern talking that we have given? How about the fact that the murder rates of third world countries match up with the various tech levels of western cultures past. ENVIRONMENT. People kill each other based on alot of factors, most of them don't have much to do with education.

And would you stop being delibrately thick. Rape doesn't benefit everyone all the time. It benefits a person at a very specific point where the benefits outweigh the risks and the opportunity presents itself. You aren't a theif but if someone left a roll of hundred dollar bills laying on a counter the temptation would strike. You might say no, but the next man might not have your scruples, despite being no more of a theif than you.

Edit: and a side note on bias, the human mind isn't equipped to come to every problem rationally. It takes far to long to work something out rationally and we are designed to extrapolate from the past on such a complete scale that it is impossible not to. Furthermore rational decisions are often wrong because of incomplete data sets.

edited 4th Mar '11 6:04:34 AM by Shrimpus

InsanityAddict Bromantic Foil from Out of the Left Field Since: Oct, 2009
#502: Mar 4th 2011 at 6:14:55 AM

Reasonable risk management tips for the victims and the modification of perceived harmful social attitudes don't really rule each other out. And a distinct line where risk management crosses over into accomodating rape culture can't really be drawn.

The area of 'grey rape' seems to me mostly a communication problem where people try to balance out the potentially awkward stating of clear intentions and the ambiguity of social cues that leaves others to do their own interpretation. At the risk of making this sound like an inherent part of human condition, social experience seem to be the only education that can remedy this problem. Not really sure, does rebuffing unwanted advances or pointing out social faux-passes to facilitate this education fall within placing responsibility with the victims?

Own rule of thumb: Always veer towards the platonic/joking interpretation of possibly flirty behaviour. If they don't have the bravado to make their intentions clear, they're too meek to be interesting anyway.

I know what you said, sugar, but 'platonic' still entails a world of ideas.
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#503: Mar 4th 2011 at 7:30:09 AM

Rationality is obviously the most reliable method of making decisions, but biases exist, and are how the human brain has evolved to operate, because they are more energy efficient. Within a given context, a simple, general rule of thumb which is accurate more often than not will work well enough to render unnecessary the expenditure of cognitive effort required to recalculate data on a case by case basis in pursuit of a truly objective model of reality's complexities. Rules of thumb lose utility when they fail to adapt to new evidence, or when they are applied to contexts for which they were not developed.

Reasonable risk management tips for the victims and the modification of perceived harmful social attitudes don't really rule each other out.
Yes. Unfortunately, reasonable risk management tips won't go over well when you're speaking to somebody who insists upon framing the discussion in terms of who's morally to blame for rape, rather than what practical actions may be taken to do something about it.

MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#504: Mar 4th 2011 at 7:54:05 AM

The issue of "blame" is best kept out of things like this. Moralism rarely, if ever, brings any benefit to these convos (except, perhaps, for the one doing the moralizing).

Enjoy the Inferno...
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#505: Mar 4th 2011 at 9:32:58 AM

All the way back here, I brought up one of the big problems with counseling women to "reduce their risk factors." It's easy for Shrimpus to say that rape victims increased their risk by opening the door to a male friend—the after-the-fact odds of any event that actually occurred are 100%. But no one has ever scolded me for having male friends over on a casual basis. No one has ever told me I was stupidly increasing my risk of being raped. You know why? Because none of those guys have ever raped me. Therefore they're not rapists, therefore having them over is not risky. If one of them ever does turn out to be a rapist who was just biding his time, then the scolding will come out. Count on it.

Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#506: Mar 4th 2011 at 9:40:16 AM

You aren't really good with the concept of statistical risk are you?

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#507: Mar 4th 2011 at 9:42:20 AM

Well, since you ask, I'm probably better at it than you are. But this thread isn't about math; it's about sociology. Which I am also better at than you, as it happens.

edited 4th Mar '11 9:42:32 AM by Karalora

PDown It's easy, mmkay? Since: Jan, 2012
It's easy, mmkay?
#508: Mar 4th 2011 at 10:02:20 AM

@Black Humor:Of course! Convert women into stoves! Then noone will rape them!

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
InsanityAddict Bromantic Foil from Out of the Left Field Since: Oct, 2009
#509: Mar 4th 2011 at 10:27:34 AM

I think it's safe to say that consensus would call that outside the perimeters of reasonable risk management. On a related tangent, risk management tips after the fact can also be framed through the lens of 'regaining control'/a coping mechanism for fear, instead of a demeaning lecture on how it could have been avoided.

On the other end, there are also manners for the dude to make the dudette feel safer. Once had to deliver a terribly sloshed dudette who made a bit of an Anything That Moves impression home after a party, since we were biking in the same direction. Left my number with one of her friends, since I feared I looked terribly suspicious, and called them when she was delivered to her doorstep. She seemed mostly annoyed that I ignored her advances and urged her to sleep well and drink lots of water.

I know what you said, sugar, but 'platonic' still entails a world of ideas.
Shrimpus from Brooklyn, NY, US Since: May, 2010
#510: Mar 4th 2011 at 12:25:02 PM

Kara, you really aren't doing a good job on that front either. When you made your original post Ii pointed out that it is not one bad decision, it is a cascade of failures. Cascade implies multiple failures in succession each allowing the impact of the previous failure to magnify. It is very rarely if ever about one failure. Not for rape, not for robbery, not for homicide by gunshot.

And no Kara, the statistics and the sociology are not seperate topics. The strategies for reduction and the cultural implications of those strategies is the central topic of this thread. Way back when I posited that the idea of 'rape culture' and the attitude that people like you have towards sex crimes in particular is absolutely toxic. Simply because it is obsessed with making moral judgments and impeding effective treatment of the problem by insisting that there is nothing that the victim can do.

Here is the thing. It is fully possible that you aren't taking any undue risk at inviting men back to your place. Thing is that some people are just better than others when it comes to gauging people. I have known people that would tell you within seconds of meeting a man whether things would get violent and they would never be wrong. The problem is that anecdotal experience with your own life and such doesn't make a decent accounting of the variables. I might be speaking from anecdote but I have been doing this long enough that I have a statistically significant population to study. If I was to total up all the victims of violent crimes the numbers would be coming very close to four or five hundred. And these are the ones that are relavant. The domestic abuse cases, the rapes, the stabbings and the shootings. Now here are the disclaimers. The population in this case is not racially reflective of the US, the vast majority of these are american black, caribbean, african, mexican, puerto rican, dominican and ecudorian. There is a smattering of russians and some anglos as well. Education wise very few college graduates but there are enough to make a show of it. The income bracket also tends to be very low.

I can remember cases where it was a complete and total fluke on the fingers of one hand. I bet you that any other guy or girl on the front lines will tell you the same story. People make their beds or have them made for them long before they have to lie in them. These don't happen out of the blue. It is chance that tradgedy befalls you but the dice have often been tumbling for years.

Sociologically have made a weak argument not backed up by any serious facts. Your objections are petty and nitpicking, and they are supremely unhelpful. You offer no practical advice and your commentary is for the most part either spurious or irrelevant.

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#511: Mar 4th 2011 at 12:45:55 PM

My point, Shrimpus darling, is that whether or not any one behavior is a bona fide risk factor is largely irrelevant. People's perceptions of whether something is a risk factor are highly dependent upon whether something bad actually happened to the person who did it.

I recall reading of a study—I believe it was related in Susan Faludi's Backlash, although I could be mistaken—wherein two groups of people were told a story about a heterosexual date. It mostly followed the woman—how and where she met the guy, what she wore to the date, where they went, how she flirted with him throughout the evening, and finally that she invited him to her place for drinks afterward. Up until that point, the story told the two groups was identical in every way, but at that point it diverged, with one group being told the date ended happily and the other being told the man raped the woman. Both groups were then asked whether she had made herself a target for rape with her behavior throughout the evening. The consensus among the first group was that she had not, but the second group mostly agreed that she had been "asking for it."

Do you see? It doesn't matter what a woman does—she still might be raped, and people addressing the situation after the fact are sure to find something she "should" have done differently in order to avoid it. She shouldn't have invited him in. She shouldn't have flirted. She should have taken a different route home from work. She shouldn't have been drinking. It doesn't matter how many times she did that very thing without trouble before; the one time it goes badly, it suddenly becomes "reckless." And that. Is. Rape culture.

Boy, I can't wait to tell my guy friends, "Sorry, I can't have you over anymore, I've just learned that I'm asking to be raped when I do that. I'm sure they'll be impressed with my foresight and not horribly insulted. And if they are horribly insulted and break off the friendship, I'm sure no one will tell me what a bitch I am for not trusting men.

Right?

neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#512: Mar 4th 2011 at 12:54:32 PM

"It doesn't matter how many times she did that very thing without trouble before; the one time it goes badly, it suddenly becomes "reckless." And that. Is. Rape culture." - Karalora

For whatever it's worth, there are a variety of things that someone would call reckless even when it does not go badly... IIRC skimpy clothing and drunk partying are frequent subjects of this.

edited 4th Mar '11 12:54:45 PM by neoYTPism

TheStupidExclamationMark Orbs from In ur cupboard Since: Dec, 2009
Orbs
#513: Mar 4th 2011 at 1:02:27 PM

This thread has learned me I must be doing something wrong. I've been alone with women so often, yet none of the times I've even thought of raping the shit out of them. According to the arguments presented in this thread I should have done so all the time and a couple of times I should actually have acted it out. Obviously any woman that talks to me and is alone in a room with me is asking for violent rape, which I should comply into performing because I am male, obviously horny all the time, and can't control my behaviour. Besides those biotches really deserve it! Even when their clothing shows essentially nothing, or they talk about their kid ad-nauseum innocently. Obviously those were all cues for me to violently torment them and rip off their clothes! I must be terribly sick for not showing such depraved behaviour all the time...But now that I think of it, none of the men I know seem to display this behaviour either. They too must be sick!

For the love of God, stop talking about men as if they are wild beastial demons just waiting to rape anyone and anything female in sight.

And the accident-comparison is stupid - obviously you can point out events that may have lead up to an accident, but that's easy in hindsight. At the moment you may not realise, and even when people realise they may choose to ignore the warning signs because of a variety of reasons, like "This time everything will go alright" (=wishful thinking).

edited 4th Mar '11 1:03:29 PM by TheStupidExclamationMark

"That said, as I've mentioned before, apart from the helmet, he's not exactly bad looking, if a bit...blood-drenched." - juancarlos
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#514: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:17:37 PM

And do you know why murder rates are down? Do you think that it is because of all that stern talking that we have given? How about the fact that the murder rates of third world countries match up with the various tech levels of western cultures past. ENVIRONMENT. [...]

So? I don't really care about the details of stopping rapists, all I'm arguing is that it's a better strategy to stop rapists than to encourage women to be paranoid.

But more to the point, higher tech is not directly the reason more people don't murder, it's that higher tech causes people to think of murder as less normal. If one of us happened to time travel to the middle ages, we wouldn't suddenly go off killing serfs for amusement.

And would you stop being delibrately thick. Rape doesn't benefit everyone all the time. It benefits a person at a very specific point where the benefits outweigh the risks and the opportunity presents itself. You aren't a theif but if someone left a roll of hundred dollar bills laying on a counter the temptation would strike. You might say no, but the next man might not have your scruples, despite being no more of a theif than you.

("deliberately thick"? I haven't been calling you on your insults so far but if you keep doing this I'm not gonna bother arguing with you.)

And yet I'm sure if you asked 100 rapists what they thought about women, and what they thought about rape, they would be rather bad from a normal person's standpoint. In fact I'm sure I've heard of studies to that effect somewhere. Too lazy to go find them now, though.

You know why? Because the situations that rapists rape women in are situations that happen without rape all the time. It's not just a bad situation, it's the combination of a bad situation and a guy who is willing to rape women.

Edit: and a side note on bias, the human mind isn't equipped to come to every problem rationally. It takes far to long to work something out rationally and we are designed to extrapolate from the past on such a complete scale that it is impossible not to.

That's true.

Furthermore rational decisions are often wrong because of incomplete data sets.

That's not. It would be true if there's something forcing you to make a decision, or a data set that appears complete but is not, but a really rational decision when faced with an incomplete data set is "I don't know".


For whatever it's worth, there are a variety of things that someone would call reckless even when it does not go badly... IIRC skimpy clothing and drunk partying are frequent subjects of this.

Skimpy clothing doesn't cause rape at all. No rapist is going to go after a woman wearing skimpy clothing rather than a woman wearing something more conservative, because skimpy clothing almost always equals a more assertive woman, and rapists are mainly looking to minimize risk to themselves, not to bang a hot chick. (Not to mention that "skimpy" is a very relative thing...)

Drunk partying is one of those things where it's dangerous to a beginner but not to an expert. So the thing is, to be safe at a party you must be an expert at partying, but to be an expert at partying you must have been a beginner at some point. Which leads either to the conclusion that women can't ever party, which I think is silly, or else that a little bit of risk is acceptable as long as you have enough caution to mitigate it. It's kind of like driving, really.

EDIT: Oh yes, and I agree that Kara is right that you can only "count the times it was a complete and total fluke on one hand" because of just world bias, and not because most of the rape victims you take care of were doing something actually risky.

It's much easier to armchair quarterback than actually quarterback, is what I'm saying.

edited 4th Mar '11 2:20:57 PM by BlackHumor

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#515: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:20:32 PM

This article seemed fairly apropos.

Hodor
Roman Love Freak Since: Jan, 2010
#516: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:34:31 PM

Huh. There's a difference between saying that prostitutes live a high risk lifestyle (they do) and saying they deserve to be raped because of it (they don't) or that people who rape prostitutes commit an act that isn't as bad because of their victims (that's silly)

| DA Page | Sketchbook |
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#517: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:40:24 PM

Yeah, really the worst part about that is not just that they blame the victim, but they actually seem to attribute causal force to the victim.

If a guy wanders into the hood with a bunch of fancy jewelry, it's partly his fault when he gets robbed, but that doesn't mean a court is going to be any nicer to the robber. That courts are actually being more lenient to rapists is saying that they really believe rape victims are asking for it in the most literal sense.

del_diablo Den harde nordmann from Somewher in mid Norway Since: Sep, 2009
Den harde nordmann
#518: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:46:31 PM

Darlings: If I am a women, the typical wench, and I get the typical stud of a Socker idiot who thinks he is entitled to everything, and I let him into the apparent, what is wrong with having a way of beating the shit out of him if he does not get the message?
A iron pipe, a tazer, calling the cops, screaming for help? Shouting in a clear voice to fuck off? Having a reliable friend around the house or nextdoor?

What Shrimpus is arguing for is that a lot of the rape victims apparently did REALLY stupid decisions.
He is not arguing that we should blame the victims. We should blame the perpetrators indeed, because they are at fault.
But most of the predetors here is not the "sick hunter" or the "get thrills of it", they are people blinded by their own stupidity to the level where they need someone to beat the crap out of them if it gets too far.
They need to be taught that it is wrong.
Holding speeches about it won't be enough, because people do not understand it. Once they get blinded, they are gone, and they will be gone until they get hunted down and forced to understand what they are doing in the first place.

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#519: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:48:37 PM

Ooh, found that study Kara mentioned.

Apparently the same Wikipedia article that I linked cited it. Funny, that.

MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#520: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:54:07 PM

One thing I found qite insulting was the "Don't Rape Her" meme that got passed around on Lj, a few years back. The blokes who'd heed it don't need it, and the ones who do need it are gonna get their rape on, no matter what patronizing, Good Guy Badge meme you circulate.

I think preventative measures make more sense, but the factor of "blame" works better being absent from the discussion.

edited 4th Mar '11 2:54:22 PM by MRDA1981

Enjoy the Inferno...
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#521: Mar 4th 2011 at 2:58:19 PM

I don't think what is needed is "don't rape her" so much as "all sex without her consent is rape NOT just sex where you jump her in a dark alley". But that doesn't fit on a T-Shirt tongue.

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#522: Mar 4th 2011 at 3:01:26 PM

I don't know if all the ads in the article I linked to are helpful for that reason, but I agree with the article that it does kind of seem like whenever someone is raped, there's immediately an effort to look at what mistake they made that indicates they "deserved it". This doesn't necessarily automatically lead to leniency toward the rapist, although as the article shows it has in practice.

I'll join the chorus of saying that Shrimpus is either unclear about what steps/how many steps he thinks women should take, and while I'm not sure whether he believes this, it seems like he thinks every rape victim made a stupid mistake.

Hodor
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#523: Mar 4th 2011 at 3:04:49 PM

[up][up]Check out that article Jordan linked to. I think the anti-rape poster there essentially fits what you're suggesting. The people who created it have other posters.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#524: Mar 4th 2011 at 3:10:30 PM

Hmm, from reading all of these it seems like Shrimpus is giving horrible advice.

Research is telling us that targeting the behavior of victims is not only ineffective, but also contributes to how much they blame themselves after the assault.

So we should be doing the exact opposite of what he's suggesting according to research on the subject. Targeting the victim's behaviour as he suggests apparently makes things worse.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#525: Mar 4th 2011 at 3:19:59 PM

Unfortunately it doesn't actually seem to link to any of that research, which makes it just an assertion and so useless.


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