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Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#226: Sep 10th 2013 at 7:54:25 PM

1) no one said anything about letting the victims commit suicide.

2) there are different levels of bullying and as such, there should be different levels of repercussions.

3) vigalanties? No one complains when an armed robber shanks a child rapist in prison. How is bullying bullies any different?

4) consider the background Barley and I come from. He as law enforcement deals with those doing damage while I deal with the after shocks and pain they leave behind. We are going to be more firmiliar with the extreme cases and the heavy pain than the minor occurances.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#227: Sep 10th 2013 at 8:09:58 PM

Do you agree with Barkey's idea that we should put people's personal info online?

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#228: Sep 10th 2013 at 8:50:17 PM

Depends. We already have databases for criminals. You can pay a small fee to get a full background check. Pay more and a private detective will do it. Websites like the Dirty are free.

Let's be real here. What is the difference between someone posting Lindsay Lohan's blood alcohol content and some other persons common escapades?

Our social standards on privacy, what constitutes bullying, and information accessibility are messed up.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#229: Sep 11th 2013 at 4:16:44 AM

Hey, if you want to go the route of Encyclopedia Dramatica and undermine your argument that bullying is wrong, that's your choice, I guess.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#230: Sep 11th 2013 at 6:26:01 AM

3) vigalanties? No one complains when an armed robber shanks a child rapist in prison.

Uh, yes, actually, people do. Not so much because they're a fan of child molesters, but because people being shanked in prison is generally a bad thing.

The attitude a lot of people have about how prison should be a punishment so therefore all the horrible stuff prisoners do to each other should be allowed to continue to 'teach them a lesson' really bothers me.

edited 11th Sep '13 6:27:04 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#231: Sep 11th 2013 at 6:35:40 AM

[up]

The attitude a lot of people have about how prison should be a punishment so therefore all the horrible stuff prisoners do to each other should be allowed to continue to 'teach them a lesson' really bothers me.

Prison is a punishment by removing someone's freedom.

edited 11th Sep '13 6:36:59 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#232: Sep 11th 2013 at 6:45:16 AM

[up] But only the Prison part. What goes on there is not a fair punishment. The horrible treatment, killings, and such.

They unfortunately are together, not entirely separate. The imprisonment part is fair only.

Shadow?
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#233: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:11:07 AM

I never said flat out all bullying is wrong. Some is. Some isn't.

Bullying a poor or minority teen just because? Bad.

Bullying a poor or minority teen because they're a jerk? Depends to what extent.

Sending Rape threats to social commentators or You Tube personalities? Bad.

Calling out a rapist to face justice through spreading evidence online? Good.

Seriously guys I am trying to appreciate the layers of this situation and what complex problems that can come from it.

All are technically bullying. Bill Clinton was bullied into admitting his misconduct with Monica. Donald Rumsfield was bullied into admitting Iraq didn't really have WM Ds.

The very black and white mentality of this thread only furthers my point that we as a society have very inconsistent and problematic attitudes with bullying, privacy, and social responsibility.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#234: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:12:40 AM

So murder is okay as long as it happens in prison? What if they were locked up for possessing marajuana, or for making someone cry on the Internet? Do they still deserve to be stabbed to death?

Wait, who has the black and white mentality here?

edited 11th Sep '13 7:14:22 AM by Morgikit

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#235: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:20:38 AM

Haha if the death was justified it wouldn't be murder would it?

I just gave one example of where it could be acceptable. Emphasis on the could.

I am not talking in absolutes. I am talking about the gray area of bullying.

Though I get why people want an absolute stance. It feels good to be confident that your rule is the rule and that it is always moral and just, that's one reason why religion is so popular. However humans are odd and personal creatures.

It is easy to point and just say "bad!" right away. But it is the gray areas that test how well we can see truly black and white situations.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#236: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:33:13 AM

Haha if the death was justified it wouldn't be murder would it?

Wow. That's just disgusting.

You realize that there's a difference between raping someone or starting a devestating war under false pretenses and saying something people find offensive, right?

demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#237: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:34:36 AM

Well, this thread has gone to a very dark place. Thing is, Barkey and I already had this argument, and we had to agree to disagree. I was able to make demonstrate that we know how to reduce the level of bullying and violence in school by training students in how to use appropriately assertive behaviors when confronting a bully, in combination with teachers and staff who are willing to actively intervene when that is not enough. These assertive behaviors are not themselves violent or physical, since that teaches a skill set that only makes the problem worse. Research supports the use of these techniques, and the rate of violence in schools is in fact declining. "Pay Back" or "An Eye for an Eye" is not the best response. Appropriate self-defense skills, like those taught in most martial arts dojo's, can be a desirable part of this.

At that time, Barkey pointed out that these techniques might, in his words, "pussify" the students. I had to agree that, depending upon how one defines "pussification", that might be true. I also stated that, as the father of two young school age children, I will gladly pay that price if it means a safer school environment for my kids.

You can find that previous thread here

Here are some of the techniques

edited 11th Sep '13 7:36:29 AM by demarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#238: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:43:19 AM

You do realize my morality doesn't have to be the same as yours?

Remember my job and what I have to try and clean up after. You tell the little girl who is practically self lobotomized because she was gang raped that what happened to her isn't the same as murder. She was a patient at my hospital. She is alive. But she cannot have kids and will probably never leave because she is so self injurious. Her life is pretty much over. Yeah, she's breathing air but she is on enough antipsychotic medication she isn't really there. But if we tried to take her down she would start trying to claw her eyes out so she couldn't see the flashbacks.

And call me disgusting all you want but by definition murder is unjustified killing.

By your logic, every solider, police officer, victim acting in self defense, or medical professional administering lethal injection is a murderer simply because they took a life?

But to get back to the topic at hand:

Maybe we should have degrees of bullying and coordinated punishments, like with everything else.

Though that seems to be the problem with bullying and especially cyber bullying. It is such a flexible and gray thing sometimes its hard to make good laws without creating situations where a minor case is treated the same as a major case.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying though.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#239: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:54:00 AM

I don't even know how to respond to that.

What the fucking hell makes you think I'm justifying rape? No one has ever insulted me this badly on this site. I'm done with this conversation.

demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#240: Sep 11th 2013 at 7:54:45 AM

I wouldn't suggest punishment as the primary response to bullying, although of course it's an option for children who wont change their behavior.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#241: Sep 11th 2013 at 9:53:49 AM

I suggest punishments for adults.

Reeducation is ideal. And that would be my first inclination as well as community service as a general situation.

But for adults who bully? They should already know better just like even the most competent adult knows shooting someone isn't a good idea.

Adults who bully often have more severe and dangerous motives and methods than children. Though both are often quite heartless.

Morgkit, I would ask where you got that is what I was saying, because I am doing nothing but disagreeing with you on the definition of murder and if death is an acceptable punishment or not. I am not attacking your character in anyway.

edited 11th Sep '13 9:56:03 AM by Polarstern

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#242: Sep 11th 2013 at 10:02:53 AM

<Mod Hat>

I think this thread has run it's course. It's so far off topic it's not even funny and it's going really dark places. I'm going to lock it up.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
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