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: That works only if you put plant life as equal to animal life, which I don't.
Also, given that some vegans think that veganism is morally superior to everything because they have the lowest kill count, the implication of that is that it is more moral to kill yourself because that reduces the kill count to 1, whereas for each food you eat to continue living you are destroying more than 1 life. That's what I find problematic. Which is why I think we're all morally screwed in that regard, because believing otherwise would mean that I should kill myself. Therefore, even if you don't agree in absolute morality hooking morality with number of deaths in some kind of inverse proportional relationship doesn't work.
I, on the other hand, prefer actions to be strictly classified as good, evil or neutral. Circumstances dictate whether the person hirself was responsible for the said action.
edited 1st Dec '12 2:12:32 PM by IraTheSquire
Plants don't feel pain. They don't have a nervous system to feel pain with.
Molluscs and other 'lower' animals (although my biology teachers would probably frown on me using that word) are a grey area, indeed, but it seems quite clear to me that there is an ethical difference between causing harm to a pig or sheep and doing the same to a plant.
Some plants are even evolved to be eaten. Fruit is produced to be eaten by animals.
edited 1st Dec '12 6:14:04 PM by LoniJay
Be not afraid...Temporarily going back to the "incidental deaths" thing- A hypothetical— Let's accept that these field mice, birds, squirrels, etc are going to die either way— If it were possible to collect the remains would it be morally acceptable to eat/skin/etc them? They aren't (purposely) being harvested or otherwise exploited, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?... I don't think here is a definition of 'nervous system' that you can get to apply to plants. They simply do not have nerves or a brain.
The 'pain' thing is the whole point. Everybody would agree that killing an animal by anaesthetics overdose is better than brutally dismembering them over several hours, yes?
Be not afraid...Fanty, growing fruit is how those particular trees spread their seeds. Humans and animals eat the fruit and leave the seeds, usually in different places, leaving the seeds to grow in new places. Eating the fruit is not eating an "abortion". I'm not exactly sure how you went from one thing to another, but wow I'd watch where you would say that, because that's a highly inflammable remark there. Also kind of ignorant of the aforementioned facts.
edited 1st Dec '12 10:19:49 PM by AceofSpades
Plants don't expect all of their seeds to germinate. That's why they make so many of them. Their strategy is to release huge amounts of offspring in the hope that a small percentage of them will find the right place and conditions to grow.
That article is interesting. I was not aware that plants had electrical signalling cells. However, they still don't have a brain to feel things in.
I also don't see evidence of their claim that the plants have 'memory'. Simply responding differently to different colours of light doesn't necessarily mean the plants 'remember' anything. It just means that they set certain pathways in motion when exposed to certain colours of light. That's probably genetically programmed in.
And my remark about which would be a 'better' death wasn't intended to accuse anybody of anything, or draw parallels to plants. I was simply making the point that, if you accept that it's possible for one manner of death to be 'better' or 'worse' than another, you have to admit that pain/distress plays a role in the morality of killing things.
Be not afraid...Right. And since pigs are about as smart as toddlers (or severely retarded adults), there's no ethical difference between killing a human and a tree either.
I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.Another question is where do you draw the line. If you're going to eat vegan, for enviromental or easing suffering motives, do you mow your lawn? Do you only wear clothes of synthetic material? Do you refuse to live in wood based houses?
I'm all about minimizing your carbon foot print and recycling. I've got a buddy who can make most anything from scratch and does for both fun and poverty management.
But bounds of reason! If it's making you sick and you look nasty, eat from a CSA or cage free, free range, etc. options. But if someone is going to be that zealous, might as well commit everywhere, not just diet.
"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc@ Polarstern, interesting point.
Very few vegans I have met actually participate in some form of social or charity work. I don't expect everyone to be chaining themselves to trees, but most aren't even educated about various basic theories and ideas concerning the causes they say they believe in.
Most are very wealthy, liberal arts students at the high end public college who claim to be saavy, but never donate to charity and spend hundreds of dollars on designers to look like they shop at Goodwill. The negative hipster...we call them by the college name and it's turned into a slander almost. Not everyone is like that of course, but that is a social disconnect in my area.
I remember when their was a push here to make all forms of animal cruelty and abuse an automatic felony. It worked. But child abuse is still mainly in the misdomenor range. That bothers me.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - AszurAnd I disagree. The capacity for thought, self-awareness, creativity, etc. is extremely valuable. That's what makes humans special. Other animals possess some more limited capacities, so for example, IMO a human would be superior to a lizard. But I think all vertebrates have the capacity for subjective experiences for sure, other animals it's not really clear, but I think it's best to assume in iffy cases that they do, for safety. But plants, I'm certain they can't think or feel. Or at least, they are certainly much less capable mentally than insects, which are borderline cases already at best, so it's not really a big deal. But anyway, eating animals is either entirely avoidable now, or will be shortly (with vat meat etc.) And since they have subjective experiences, once it literally costs nothing, I see no reason to continue killing animals for food.
Wow, that was very ranty... :T
edited 2nd Dec '12 8:22:14 AM by TenTailsBeast
I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.Unless you are a strict Jain who refuses clothes, uses the broom, and sustains themselves from tree bark and animal wastes, you are going to be hurting something in order to survive.
You buy organic cotton clothes? If it came from Africa or Asia it is organic which is good for the earth, but it is probably picked by child labor.
You buy free range beef? It stimulates local economy and is more eco-friendly and humane. But it's also more expensive then what most people can handle, just like CS As.
You want to fight animal abuse by refusing to buy mass market foods but then corn fields are whiped out to invest in suppliments in food, fuel, and plastics.
Pick your poision or become a Sunyaana.
Personally, I do what I can with what I have. I have been called evil for still shopping at walmart but there isn't many other options to get cheap and quality foods and goods in my town. I can make so many things from scratch but I can't do that without base ingredients.
So if you want to become a Vegan, cool. But don't be self righteous over it because you're saving animals at the cost of other things.
Morality is not perfect anymore. It's just a balancing act.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - AszurUnfortunately veganism can and more often then not is unhealthy
if done improperly
, that being said it is possible to be a health vegan if you do the research. I call myself "all most vegan" as the very wise John Green recently said "eating meat once a month is almost as good as not eating meat at all." I am down to once a week and that is where I will probable stay.
edited 2nd Dec '12 1:09:17 PM by GraySloth
Gabrael got my point. You're going to be fucking something up by living. Pick which way you would like to cause as little damage and pick where you're willing to cause damage.
Veganism often attracts people who are very passionate about lessening their damage on earth, which is great. But the problem is when they assume some sort of moral or ethical superiority. Like they're somehow negating all harm. They're not.
"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc

Unless it's also immoral to kill yourself, in which case you're morally screwed. Although I disagree with the whole premise here. Morality is not a binary yes-no switch.
edited 1st Dec '12 1:39:27 PM by Clarste