The message behind the quote isn't only believed by atheists though. If you believe your religion is right, then all others must be delusional in some form. Atheists just apply that to all religions equally.tongue
I found this appropriate and enlightening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrR5xUydJm8
edited 16th Dec '14 4:27:35 AM by chaosconsortium
Collector Of Fine Oddities
I know you guys don' know me, but all the same I'd request a quick prayer. I've had so many catastrophes in my family over just the last week that I feel like my sister and I have been cast as the leads in a reenactment of Job.
-offers an internet hug-
God, please help carbon-mantis with their life situation. with surviving, and having strength, and being able to keep going. be with them. amen.
you wanna talk about it?
ophelia, you're breaking my heart
Collector Of Fine Oddities
In brief, both parents have potentially life threatening illnesses but are refusing treatment due to their belief in old superstitions. My older sister's mental state is rapidly degrading due to the stress. Should the worst happen, my younger sister would likely go to live with our grandparents, but my grandfather was just diagnosed with late stage cancer on top of everything else that's happened and my grandmother's mobility is limited. I myself have a chronic illness that most of my income goes to supporting at the moment.
Seems everything likes to go wrong during the holidays. . .
oh wow. that really, genuinely, truly sucks. all my sympathy.
life just sucks sometimes doesn't it
ophelia, you're breaking my heart
I have prayed for you Carbon-Mantis.
Unfortunatly, I don't know what I can say about your situation. You and your family have my sympathies.
You say I am loved, when I don’t feel a thing. You say I am strong, when I think I am weak. You say I am held, when I am falling short.
Collector Of Fine Oddities
Your words mean more than I can express. I'm just at a loss over what to do at the moment. Most of my immediate family are die-hard objectivists who'd sooner throw you to the wolves than offer aid; in regards to my own illness, my aunt once told me I was a "social parasite" leeching off the productivity of others, or something to that point.
I've been spending the past week or so going behind my parent's backs and trying to talk to physicians. Actually managed to get a reply from one of the top fellows in his field, but unfortunately little can be done since they're both adamantly refusing everything. At this point I'm trying my best to enjoy the holidays with them while I can at the very least; odds are that they may not be around next Christmas.
On another, slightly cheerier note, I'd have to tip my hat (metaphorical as it were) to some of my local churches this Christmas. The local electric companies have jacked up their monthly rates to an insane degree, and a lot of really poor people are seeing their electricity cut off for the holidays. Most have children and with the weather being as bad as it is, there's a real danger of people freezing to death. The larger churches have set up special aid funds to offer emergency assistance to people who have had their electricity cut off, on top of the usual soup kitchens they offer every year. 
...wow. that is pretty...yeah. but as long as there's life, there's hope?
and...good, glad to hear that your local churches are being awesome.
Carbon-Mantis: You have some great local churches! ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
You know, I find it really sad that nowadays, some consider God to be bad, and the devil good, when it couldn't be further from the truth.
Why do you guys suppose people believe that stuff?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm reminded of a couple Bible verses (e.g., 2 Corinthians 4:4 where Satan is referred to as "the god of this world"). But rather than delving into those, I think it might have to do with some minor philosophy about the nature morals.
Long story short, as Christians, we tend to get our morals from the Bible. This isn't to say that we necessarily need the Bible to know that theft, rape, murder, etc., are wrong. But if someone gets their morals from anywhere else, their own morals likely won't line up with the Bible's. Therefore, some people see God as some kind of genocidal egomaniac when he punishes large groups of people.
There's also the common question "how can God allow suffering?" I have my own answer to that question I won't bother derailing the thread with, but I think a problem it is that the question seems a bit loaded to me. It seems to imply that God is meant to serve us or somehow owes us something.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
God is considered a genocidal, thought controlling despot while the Devil gave us the ability to think and judge for ourselves. Since a lot of Christians nowadays live in democracies and not feudal or absolute monarchies anymore, the Devil's way of treating humans as independent fits more with our values. The top-down philosophy of power and morals of the Bible doesn't match our understanding of bottom-up governance and self-determination.
Staring At My Own Grave
I remember reading some article about Desmond Tutu (I think) meeting with the Dali Lama and discussing different aspects of their religions, Buddhism, having no supreme gods. I remember the article had the Archbishop asking if that was hard because "Who do you blame?" - As in, touching on the common practice in the Western world of blaming God for everything that goes wrong in life.
The idea of a supreme power that we think of in human terms (as anthropomorized in the Bible) in charge of a world like the one we have, of course were going to get angry that said supreme power appears to be aloof and arbitrary. Then combine that with the idea that the "holiness of God" cannot be touched by us.
The Devil, on the other hand - if taken as more than just a metaphor for human evil and temptations, and even that - is well... closer to human. We all rebel against our parents, feeling them unreasonable at some point. The "fallen angel" idea speaks to a lot of people. And if we are "evil" rather than purely "holy" - and trust me, I don't see a halo over my head... well, in traditional ideas of the Devil, it makes him more able for us to relate to.
Not that I am willingly and knowingly "on the Devil's side" - but we probably all are unconsciously. It makes sense that particularly rebellious types of people would take it to the next level. Perhaps "thinking the Devil is cool" is just honesty?
A holy God is scary. The Devil is someone we inherently know.
I have my own reasons as to "why I believe" despite being able to see the kind of philosophy above that are never going to satisfy the atheists visiting this forum (you know, unless it ends in my becoming one of them. Sorry, my brain's too broken and you don't want it anyway, probably not even for petty "I convinced someone I was right" reasons). Belief that something exists and not being able to shake it isn't the same as being a sycophant who believes blindly. The Bible is full of people arguing morality with God. I feel like it's the duty of believers to do just that. Look at the Blue-and-Orange Morality and wrestle with it. Too many of "God's people" follow scripture blindly, or follow preachers blindly and have forgotten that sometimes things aren't just black and white. Too afraid that questioning means you're following the Devil? Don't be.
Of course, there is also the modern notion that cynicism and darkness make you smart while idealism and light is just "glurge" and makes you dumb. Our culture values head over heart in most respects.
In which I attempt to be a writer.
What if you're someone who thinks that all religions have a bit of truth to them (and that as far as any of us knowing the whole truth goes, we all "see through a glass darkly?")
For me, this "we see through a glass darkly and don't know it all" is applied to atheism as well as to religions (my own included).
WHERE THE HELL DO I BELONG?!!
edited 14th Dec '14 11:42:12 AM by Shadsie
In which I attempt to be a writer.