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Bluespade from Fort Worth, Texas Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
#2401: Jun 16th 2012 at 4:23:09 PM

The question is, what is so bad about death itself?

I think you're operating under some false assumptions here. For a Christian who has already had their soul saved, there is no reason to fear death. A Christian should spend their time on earth serving god and working to bring other to Him, but they have no real reason to be frightened of death, since their souls are bound for heaven. Of course this doesn't stop the instinctual, biological fear of death which stems from a fear of pain and the unknown.

There are times in the bible where it refers to "spiritual death," meaning the death of one who has not received salvation and is therefore bound for hell. This certainly is tragic and to be mourned, but it's not something Christians have to worry about, except for their loved ones who have not been saved.

Also, keep in mind that 90% of what is typically shown to be a part of hell comes from Dante's Divine Comedy, a work of fiction and political satire. Hell is probably quite a bit different from what most people tend to think of, but the bible is quite vague on it, since (this may come as a surprise) the bible is not big on scare tactics, so it doesn't really talk about hell much at all.

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#2402: Jun 16th 2012 at 4:25:42 PM

The Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost have formed a lot of the cultural ideas about Hell and the Devil.

Bluespade from Fort Worth, Texas Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
#2403: Jun 16th 2012 at 4:30:05 PM

Best explanation for hell I've seen comes from Lee Strobel's book The Case for Faith, which is a wonderful book I recommend to everyone. All of his "Case" books are great, actually, look him up.

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2404: Jun 16th 2012 at 5:06:48 PM

Perhaps, this is one of the issues about which there is some disagreement of opinions between Christians. I agree that the "fire and brimstone" depiction of hell is simply a medieval metaphor, and definitely not canon nor to be taken literally (not that medieval theologians took it literally either, in any case); but as I see it, even Jesus feared death.

Even if one could be sure of one's salvation, as Jesus quite obviously was, death is something unnatural and nasty and undesirable. Even if they are to meet again in the afterlife, and even putting aside the issue of physical suffering — I have not tried that myself (yet, perhaps), but I heard that dying of cancer is not very fun — it is unjust, profoundly unjust, for father and son, for husband and wife, to be separated: death is a crime against humanity, in the fullest sense of the term.

No offense meant to people who think otherwise, of course; but I will be honest, this uncompromising war against death is a very big part of how I understand Christianity.

edited 16th Jun '12 5:18:55 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#2405: Jun 16th 2012 at 5:19:08 PM

I think death is one of the paradoxes of Christianity. It is, as Carciofus mentioned, something broken and wrong and to be defeated, but at the same time, it is the gateway out of this profoundly broken world into the perfection of heaven.

It is a curse in that it was never meant to exist, but it is not wholly evil, not while the world is still unhealed.

(Also, hi everyone. I've been lurking for a while and finally felt like I actually had something to say.)

Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#2406: Jun 16th 2012 at 5:26:22 PM

Hello, Nocturna. I'm the lurker who occasionally posts here :P

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2407: Jun 16th 2012 at 5:29:27 PM

[up][up]Hello Nocturna!

I should probably go to sleep now, it's past 2AM here — goodnight everybody!

edited 16th Jun '12 5:29:39 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#2408: Jun 16th 2012 at 9:15:14 PM

even Jesus feared death.

And not only that, but knew that his in particular would be particularly distasteful even as far as it goes.

TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#2409: Jun 17th 2012 at 8:04:50 AM

So, is it weird to consider Christianity a new, recently founded religion? I do...

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
Pyrite Until further notice from Right. Beneath. You. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Hiding
Until further notice
#2410: Jun 17th 2012 at 8:27:07 AM

In what context? It's definitely younger than Judaism and older than Islam (using the Abrahamic religions as an example).

(Also, not so sure about the Fire and Brimstone Hell being medieval metaphor, since the Gospels and Revelation do refer to the lake of eternal fire, but that's just nitpicking.)

edited 17th Jun '12 8:30:44 AM by Pyrite

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2411: Jun 17th 2012 at 10:12:10 AM

Good point. Perhaps it would be better to say that the "fire and brimstone" image got popularized and expanded during the Middle Ages.

[up][up]I do too. But then again, I consider this a new, recently founded universe... tongue

edited 17th Jun '12 10:27:09 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2413: Jun 17th 2012 at 2:44:18 PM

What part? The part about death, or the part about the universe being "recently founded"?

I just want to clarify, hopefully without turning it into a debate: by saying that I was not referring to YEC, to which I do not personally subscribe, but just to the fact that I think that this universe, and the human experience in it, is just barely at the beginning.

edited 17th Jun '12 2:50:06 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#2414: Jun 17th 2012 at 2:56:08 PM

[up] Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey?

edited 17th Jun '12 2:56:24 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Bluespade from Fort Worth, Texas Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
#2415: Jun 17th 2012 at 3:54:04 PM

So, is it weird to consider Christianity a new, recently founded religion? I do...

The modern version of Christianity was created shortly after the crucifixion, but the foundations of it go back much, much further.

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.
#2416: Jun 17th 2012 at 5:42:58 PM

The part about the universe being "recently founded". I meant it in terms of "the time before Christianity was insignificant on a spiritual scale", although (also without meaning to start a debate) I do lean heavily towards YEC.

<><
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2418: Jun 17th 2012 at 6:10:24 PM

Oooh. That would be a very interesting thing to learn about indeed...Didn't think of it myself though so yay. Thank you for bringing it up TTB.

This is a subject of interest to me...Since Buddhism's answers are...Yes and no, maybe, and no comment.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#2419: Jun 17th 2012 at 6:47:07 PM

My understanding is that the universe and mankind, as they exist now, will both come to an end. But they will both be transformed into something far better, which will last forever.

For the vast majority of humans, this means dying, persisting for some indeterminate period as a spirit apart from their body, and then receiving a glorified new body when God's kingdom comes in full. Depending on what eschatology turns out to be true, those who are alive when the kingdom arrives might skip those first two steps.

As far as the universe, the most common interpretation is that it will be destroyed before being transformed into "a new heaven and a new earth". But there are also some (like my theology teacher from 12th grade) who think the creation will be transfigured without being destroyed.

I also know CS Lewis speculated that those who reject God would eventually cease to exist. A big part of this was that he thought it preferable to them existing in Hell for eternity. I'm not sure what to make of this.

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2420: Jun 17th 2012 at 6:51:35 PM

By ceasing to exist you do mean "ceasing to exist", yes? As in...completely? I ask because Nibbana is a state away from the universe. Completely separate from existence. Yet it isn't "nonexistence". It's a state of deathlessness far beyond anything we can typically comprehend.

Which makes it both existence and nonexistence in a way.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
pyr0h1tman8 What'd you just say about my hair?! from The Land Down Under Since: Jul, 2010
What'd you just say about my hair?!
#2421: Jun 17th 2012 at 6:52:10 PM

Well, the symbolism of the "lake of fire" comes from the references to Gehenna. Gehenna was a place of burning as I understand it, so most people assumed that it meant Fire and Brimstone Hell. However, Gehenna was where people went to burn their rubbish, destroying it. So I've heard it interpreted (and this is my personal belief) that if someone truly rejects God and refuses to be redeemed then they are erased from existence. By this I mean that their consciousness ceases. They no longer exist anywhere.

Note that this is all stuff I've heard second hand, so take it with a grain of salt.

edited 17th Jun '12 6:52:58 PM by pyr0h1tman8

In our heart, Mr. Ando will always be a penguin.
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#2422: Jun 17th 2012 at 7:00:12 PM

By ceasing to exist you do mean "ceasing to exist", yes? As in...completely?
I'm pretty sure that's what Lewis had in mind.

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2423: Jun 17th 2012 at 7:01:39 PM

'k. Thank you. It may have been a silly question, but given what I've learned over the past few years making specifications about things like that seems important. Because...religion can be some weird shit.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
#2424: Jun 17th 2012 at 7:11:09 PM

I think the universe will cease to exist, but the human experience will not, and will possibly continue in new universe(s).

<><
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2425: Jun 17th 2012 at 7:13:15 PM

Are the new universes entirely new? Or are they formed of the materials that made the old universe? Recycling so to speak.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

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