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Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2301: May 31st 2012 at 12:26:36 PM

...that is a question I had wanted to ask but never got around to asking and then forgot about. Thank you, Carc! Since the universe dying and then remaking itself is a thing in Buddhism, we have no idea if this is the first or if it will be the last or even can be. Nor do we know if there are others existing alongside ours outside of ours! But things are much bigger than "reality" so possibly...

I now get to know...KNOW THE SECRETS OF YOUR BELIEFS OF THINGS REGARDING MULTIPLE UNIVERSES.

edited 31st May '12 12:27:42 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#2302: May 31st 2012 at 1:33:31 PM

Unitarians are basically what happens when people say "hey let's be a religion!" but don't bother settling on a mythos or creed because they don't want to offend anyone. It's like taking a ton of COEXIST bumper stickers and getting them really, really stoned.

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#2303: May 31st 2012 at 1:36:31 PM

UU churches can be nice meeting places and places to ask questions on a somewhat related note. Can be. They can also not be. The places are very, very hit or miss. Thankfully the one I've been to a few times was a nice spot. I met my first mentor in Buddhism there. An interesting man of the Thai Forest tradition who became a monk for a bit because that is what Thai people do and he is fascinated with Thai culture.

I haven't heard from him in a while. I should pester him.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
pyr0h1tman8 What'd you just say about my hair?! from The Land Down Under Since: Jul, 2010
What'd you just say about my hair?!
#2304: May 31st 2012 at 5:47:09 PM

Just an interesting thing regarding multiple universes.

Apparently in Hindu doctrine it's actually stated that there is an infinite multiverse. I used to think that it was a fairly recent idea, but there you go.

In our heart, Mr. Ando will always be a penguin.
TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#2305: May 31st 2012 at 5:49:28 PM

Does a spatially infinite universe (with uniform matter distribution) count as a multiverse?

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
pyr0h1tman8 What'd you just say about my hair?! from The Land Down Under Since: Jul, 2010
What'd you just say about my hair?!
#2306: May 31st 2012 at 5:53:27 PM

I don't think so, as while its size is infinite, there's still only one of it.

In our heart, Mr. Ando will always be a penguin.
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#2307: Jun 1st 2012 at 6:27:11 PM

[up][up] Are the laws of physics consistent throughout it?

I now get to know...KNOW THE SECRETS OF YOUR BELIEFS OF THINGS REGARDING MULTIPLE UNIVERSES.

It's a possibility, but I am not an objective source because I am in love with the idea.

If I remember my history correctly, the traditional (Catholic) doctrine is humans are probably not the only beings made in imago Dei. Considering the relationship depicted between humans and the natural world, such logic would probably extend to the existence of other natural worlds as well.

edited 1st Jun '12 6:27:45 PM by Noaqiyeum

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#2308: Jun 1st 2012 at 10:40:04 PM

Seeing how we apparently have rites ready to go for baptizing space aliens, we're probably okay with the idea of us not being The Chosen Species or anything.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2309: Jun 1st 2012 at 11:22:06 PM

One idea that I found mentioned rather often (but I don't think that it is official doctrine or anything) is that "in the image of God" means something like "with a mind capable of understanding and manipulating Creation". So any other sapient species would also be "in the image of God".

But what if that species does not live at a temperature in which water is liquid? Throwing a chunk of ice on the head of a newborn does not seem very friendly... tongue

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#2310: Jun 1st 2012 at 11:29:23 PM

Would that mean there would be many figures like Jesus? Also, what if they reproduce asexually or are hermaphroditic?

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2311: Jun 1st 2012 at 11:31:40 PM

I don't think so. I mean, it's not like Jesus was born in all different continents of Earth, or among all different human ethnicities...

Also, what if they reproduce asexually or are hermaphroditic?
I don't understand... what then?

edited 1st Jun '12 11:32:58 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#2312: Jun 1st 2012 at 11:35:25 PM

Hmm... But they live on a whole nother planet, or universe. Would God just leave them in the cold?

[up]I mean, if there are other figures like/different incarnations of Jesus, how would the virgin birth work if the aliens were like that?

edited 1st Jun '12 11:37:46 PM by TenTailsBeast

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#2313: Jun 1st 2012 at 11:47:44 PM

How do we know for sure that these other aliens fell in the first place and need to be saved?

How do we know for sure that, if they need to be saved, God can only do it by incarnating as their species?

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2314: Jun 1st 2012 at 11:47:47 PM

[up][up]Well, did God leave in the cold, I dunno, the Chinese or the Australian Aboriginals who lived before contact with the West?

Now, this is an issue about which there is some disagreement among Christians, and no offense is meant to the ones here who believe otherwise; but personally, I think that Jesus' sacrifice — and the ensuing Salvation — applies to all beings who behave in a manner which is compatible to its acceptance, even if they never heard of Him and even if they lived before it.

As I understand it, Jesus does not particularly care about us attempting to sweet-talk Him; He wants us to behave as He taught — and the teaching was essentially a reminder. The principles that He gave are not anything that others could not find by "simple" recourse to Conscience and reasoning (the Golden Rule, for example, is incredibly widespread.)

[up]We are speculating randomly; but personally, I think that the Fall is something that applies to the whole Creation, and not only to us homo sapiens.

edited 2nd Jun '12 12:09:08 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#2315: Jun 2nd 2012 at 12:00:47 AM

How do we know for sure that these other aliens fell in the first place and need to be saved?

Hmm, this entire thing is speculation in the first place, so why not entertain it?

How do we know for sure that, if they need to be saved, God can only do it by incarnating as their species?
Ah, so God doesn't care if we know about Him? Well, I guess that's reasonable...

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2316: Jun 2nd 2012 at 12:05:18 AM

I would argue that really knowing God is far beyond the capabilities of any human mind. We may perhaps know something about Him; but that's not limited to believers. If you know something about Love, you know something about God.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#2318: Jun 2nd 2012 at 11:19:41 AM

One idea that I found mentioned rather often (but I don't think that it is official doctrine or anything) is that "in the image of God" means something like "with a mind capable of understanding and manipulating Creation". So any other sapient species would also be "in the image of God".
...okay, this is my interpretation and I have no idea whether it's substantiated by doctrine of any particular denomination, but as I understand it 'imago Dei' means that we are the only (documented) species that resembles God in the sense that we, like him, are tripartite - soul/mind (God the Father), body (God the Son), and spirit (guess who). Since those three things combined seem to be the basis of sapience, it would be true of other sapient species as well.

However, I've also heard that the Hebrew translated as 'imago Dei' is tzelem Elohim; 'tzelem' is the word translated elsewhere, such as in the second commandment, as 'idol' or 'graven image'. note  In other words, there is an actual implication of physical resemblance as well. I'm not sure if my analysis above can reconcile to that; if I think about it in a wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey way, though, we look like Jesus because we were created in his image and Jesus looks like us because he incarnated as one of us... so presumably the same could hold true for other forms of sentient life?

But what if that species does not live at a temperature in which water is liquid? Throwing a chunk of ice on the head of a newborn does not seem very friendly... tongue
Presumably the sacrament would use the corresponding substance in their own environment? Carbon-based life relies on having access to liquid water, as the basis for cytoplasm, acting as a universal solvent and medium for biochemical reactions that is not so active that it actually interferes with them. If liquid water is completely unavailable, the life forms would have to be based on silicon or (less famously, since it's quite difficult to get it to form long stable peptide chains like carbon does) boron. The water-analogue for silicon-based life would be ammonia; I don't know about boron.

How do we know for sure that, if they need to be saved, God can only do it by incarnating as their species?
(...)
Ah, so God doesn't care if we know about Him? Well, I guess that's reasonable...
Does that conclusion follow? I'm reminded of The Space Trilogy. The inhabitants of all three planets, Mars, Earth, and Venus, were threatened as a consequence of Thulcandra's rebellion, but their salvation still comes in different forms - the species of Mars were never tempted to rebel collectively and their Genius Loci protects them spiritually and helps them stay vigilant as their atmosphere slowly boils away; Earth did collectively rebel, in the fall, which Jesus was sent to atone for; Venus is tempted to rebel, but God sends Dr. Ransom to help the Lord and Lady and to argue against and ultimately fight and kill the serpent-analogue. note  That's three different forms of salvation, with only one incarnation, none of which imply that God doesn't care if we know about him.

edited 2nd Jun '12 11:21:46 AM by Noaqiyeum

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
#2319: Jun 2nd 2012 at 6:17:24 PM

I understand "in the image of God" to mean "possessing free will, including the freedom to choose between good and evil". "Hnau", for those who have read the Space Trilogy.

I think the main Biblical argument against the existence of aliens is the passage that speak in terms of "all the cosmos" being affected by various earthly events. While that doesn't completely rule it out, the argument has merit.

Of course, in one way a Biblical worldview makes the question of extraterrestrials easier: If the universe and life were created in a supernatural event rather than evolved naturally, then it seems probable that all other intelligent life would have started at the same time we did, and would most likely be at a similar level of advancement to us. So there could be tons of civilizations out there who just started searching for each other, but none that are remotely close to getting a message to us yet.

edited 2nd Jun '12 6:17:43 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2321: Jun 3rd 2012 at 12:09:00 AM

I think the main Biblical argument against the existence of aliens is the passage that speak in terms of "all the cosmos" being affected by various earthly events. While that doesn't completely rule it out, the argument has merit.
Well, considering that all of humankind and Earth has been affected by events happened to some desert people in a random backwater dump... tongue

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
#2322: Jun 3rd 2012 at 7:27:51 AM

Not a random backwater dump by any means: The holy land was the closest thing there was to the center of the world at the time, on the intersection between the Roman, Persian, and Indian cultures, and with trade routes to Africa and China. There is no point on the planet you could have chosen with ready access to a wider spectrum of the human race.

<><
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#2323: Jun 3rd 2012 at 7:30:33 AM

Still on the topic of Sci-Fi and Christianity: What do you think of artificial intelligence? Do you believe it impossible because of religious reasons, or do you consider it possible, at least in principle? And if so, what would be the status of intelligent computer programs, soulwise and afterlife-wise?

My personal opinion (but it's not something I am hugely sure about): I am mildly agnostic about the possibility of artificial intelligence — I have no reasons to think it impossible, and I think that trying to develop it is bound to bring out interesting results no matter what. If true artificial intelligences were possible, then as I see it they would certainly have a soul, and they would even have an afterlife of sorts (I'm not sure of the details; but eh, I am not sure about the exact details of human afterlife either tongue )

But as I said, that's not something I am especially confident about. What about you?

[up]Perhaps you are right, I should check. But it seems to me that Israel was far more isolated than you suggest — there was some commerce and so on, sure, but it was not the hub of commerce and cultural exchange that, for example, Alexandria or Rome were.

edited 3rd Jun '12 7:41:18 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Falkon Lord of the Avians from the Sky Since: Feb, 2012
Lord of the Avians
#2324: Jun 3rd 2012 at 7:38:26 AM

I doubt that humanity has what it takes to create a true AI. From what I've read, it seems like it's just too complex.

If I'm wrong, though, I'd imagine that God would probably give them a soul. Or they'd just automatically get one, dunno. But I'd imagine they'd be able to go to heaven.

TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#2325: Jun 3rd 2012 at 7:40:23 AM

I agree with Kurzweil. We'll see Strong AI in about 20 years. The Singularity is Near is convincing. I think they'll be people, perhaps just as human as us.

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.

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