@5572: My church actually had an entire sermon series on difficult parts of the bible, misogyny being one of them. They have a very progressive attitude on it, and this is a Southern Baptist church.
"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — UltimatepheerOkay, one user is seriously grating at me and has been for a while with her opinions on religious people.
I will not go into any more detail. I just had to get it out.
"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — UltimatepheerSo who here has read Paradise Lost? If so, what did you think of it, being Christian and all that?
Also, what say you about the Devil's Misaimed Fandom regarding his portrayal in the poem?
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I had to read part of it in English class once. I'm not sure what to think about it from a theological perspective, but it's historically and artistically important, no denying that.
edited 6th Sep '14 7:06:40 AM by BaffleBlend
"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer@L Dragon
Because he has great lines:
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.
I tried reading it when I was in high school. Never been a fan of rooting for the devil, and then my burgeoning feminist put it down when I got to Eve.
seriously. dude has his three daughters translating Greek to English for him and transcribing his life's work, but he still thinks they should just stay in the kitchen? but it's okay as long as they're doing it for him. -long eyeroll-
ophelia, you're breaking my heartHow much interfaith dialogue is possible?
I ask this because I'm not sure we're ever going to be able to talk with others well as long as we all feel superior to one another.
This was brought to the fore for me when I was just reading one of the front page blogs on Patheos. I don't usually go into the Atheist section, but I read "Processing Atheist Grief" over there because it was a subject I was interested in as a way of knowing how to help people.
I've had atheist friends (mostly online lately) who lose people in their sphere. I've been very careful in speaking with them about loss and grief. I know, for instance, not to speak of "Heaven" to people who don't believe in it. I'm not even sure people should speak of "Heaven" to those that do believe in it when they're in pain. I read the blog because I was interested in how someone of that particular persuasion dealt with loss so that I might be better informed and more sensitive in regards to grief-process in general and for one without some of my metaphysically-speculative nature in particular. It was actually a pretty neat post - I liked the idea of writing a letter based in what one might think a dead person would say to you about life (rather than the more usual practice of writing to the dead).
However, I got to the end of it and just cringed. The blogger went from talking about grief-process to writing about how an atheist's grief-process was just plain better than a theist's. It spoke of how seeing life as temporary meant that he valued everyone having a better, happier life in the now, but then switched to talking about how atheist lives just mean more because they only believe in the now.
I can forgive the blogger if he were writing while in grief, but the tone of the post told me that he'd had time to process this for a good, long time. It reminded me of some opinion-yanker on Huffington Post saying something similar about how she thought atheists "inherently got more meaning out of life" than the rest of us.
And here I am left thinking about how much I wanted to post a comment on the grief-article humbly speaking that even though I'm not one of the group, I read this to try to gain insight into how to be gentle and know the right way to behave to friends —- but am AFRAID to because I don't want to talk to someone who thinks my life is inherently less valuable. The sad thing is, I don't even thing the poster was trying to be cruel... was on a tear or anything, I think they were just voicing their normal, regular, subconsciously-hostile thoughts. That make it worse.
And it's not like I've not seen it in Christian circles - even among the Progressive/non-fundamental types. In fact, it's with a little shame that I say that sometimes I actively look for "counters to atheists" in blogs and articles online to read because I just want some kind of assurance that my desire to believe in things like Heaven - let alone the actual belief - doesn't mean I'm stupid-evil.
I see that a lot in comments on forums and such. Heck, go to anything in the Religion section of Huffington Post. I sometimes honestly feel like I want to present some of the people in the comments with a sharp knife and go to my knees before them and dare them to kill me with the way they talk about how we're the scourge of the Earth.
But, unfortunately... there's superiority complex in the Christian blogs, too.
I suppose it happens with all religions and non-religions/counter-religions. There's really only so much you can read until your search for "how to be good to people whose clubs you're not a part of so as to be a better friend" leads you to find that because of some little thing you hope for (that you're not even sure about) means that you're not as valuable, you just aren't equal and never will be.
I wish there wasn't this animosity between us... this need to label "whose life means more."
In which I attempt to be a writer.
This is why I never look at any article or video that even remotely resembles mentioning religion/antireligion.
I wanted to read it just because it was about grief-process and I think it's good to know how people who adamantly don't believe in (even the possibility) of things like Heaven or reincarnation think and how they deal with loss. As said, it's about knowing how to be a good shoulder to lean on, learning not to accidentally say something insensitive because your own subculture has ingrained things you might not be aware of in your brain.
However, the superiority-posturing as a tit-for-tat doesn't exactly help. (It's the kind of thing that makes me wary of making / not wanting to even have atheist friends... for fear that they "secretly think like this" ) but I can't do that... I make all kinds of friends in my fandoms, where liking the same games/shows and being creative trumps everything. But I still feel this discomfort... every time I read something "superior" from some blogger, my brain starts second-guessing my friends and I have to tell it to shut up because none of them are activists or academics.
In which I attempt to be a writer.I think that in most cases, people — regardless of their religion or lack thereof — are nowhere as smug and sure of themselves as they come across in online discussions. If anything, the more they feel personally uncertain and the more they might end up coming across as opinionated and aggressive when arguing online.
I'm sure that there are plenty of people who, after spending a few hours arguing loudly that <insert religious category here> are ignorant idiots who are the cause of everything that's wrong in the world, shut down the computer and hang out with their super religious grandma or atheist uncle or Muslim buddy without a care in the world.
edited 8th Sep '14 10:14:27 PM by Carciofus
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
That's because they can get something out of them, though, isn't it? People use biases on their friends and family all the time. "Everyone BUT this person I like who bakes me cookies/fixes my car/whom I have fond memories of being raised by."
My brain has been coming up with some very cynical theories on Humanity lately, about how we essentially just think of each other as things. I think Jesus tried to change this, but for the most part, he hasn't worked.
In which I attempt to be a writer.Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but I think it's just because they know them and relate to them as persons. In an online debate, instead, you are arguing against a faceless mass of people — or often, to be more precise, against an imaginary entity made of the worst perceived traits of everyone who ever disagreed with you. So it's easier to get carried away and take things too far, I think.
Yeah, it would be better not to: it can hurt feelings, and that kind of attitude may well end up overspilling into Real Life. But still, I think that the vast majority of people are far more kind and tolerant than they come across in online debates.
edited 8th Sep '14 10:38:11 PM by Carciofus
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.It wasn't really a debate that I was talking about just a dry blog post with no fighting.
Thinking about this - along with something non-religion-related from the last couple of weeks (I posted in the Anxiety thread in Yack Fest), it's just... it's set into the natural depression I seem to be cycling in right now. Thoughts are racing a bit, too. Like, I'm suddenly thinking "If my feelings aren't actually real / as real as a human's feelings can be, maybe it won't matter if I died. Oh, and those who would mourn me? Maybe their feelings aren't real enough to matter, either."
Don't worry. I know at what point I'm really going off the rails and need help. I'm going through my usual "I've gotta ride through this" dumb feelings. I know I'm being oversensitive. It's just, if I get hit by a speeding car while out on my daily walk tommorrow, will it really matter if my heart/feelings/pain/griefs/appreciation for life weren't "real?" If I'm only a half-soul... maybe going into the dark won't be so bad.
In which I attempt to be a writer.

www.christianthinktank.com has some great articles about women in the Bible. And yes, ancient times had Values Dissonance. Kinda hard to make creatures with free will not treat each other like dirt. What's really funny is when people think that just because the Bible reports that person A committed evil act X, that it condones X. Insane Troll Logic much???