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Shadsie Staring At My Own Grave from Across From the Cemetery Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Staring At My Own Grave
#5551: Aug 31st 2014 at 6:50:55 PM

[up]

People don't like being told what to do and held to a law for any specific religion they do not believe in. When we look at theocracies around the world, they kind of suck.

Everyone kind of cordially ignores the fact that a lot of our basic laws typical have some root religious base or at least share things in common with religious laws. This is because "Thou shall not kill" / murder being a crime is good for everyone.

Some of the ones that get a little more nitpicky into people's lifestyles start becoming a problem. I ate a bacon cheeseburger tonight. It hurt no one (but the animals involved and possibly my arteries). I would fight tooth and nail against any LAW that would force me to go Kosher, Halal, or Vegan because people of one or more of those persuasions came into power or majority. I would resent anyone denying me the right to purchase bacon cheeseburgers because I would see it as other people's beliefs as infringing on my rights. My personal perception of God does not deny bacon cheeseburgers to his followers. It is what comes out of someone that makes him/her unclean, not what goes into them and becomes poop. I can respect the rights of others to abstain from bacon cheeseburgers so long as they can respect my right to eat them.

Now, I understand the sentiment of the Vegan in this more than most, simply because the typical Vegan actually sees the slaughter of the animals to make bacon cheeseburgers as a form of murder. So, there, I have some sympathy. Otherwise, I'd like the law to leave me alone, or at least let me raise my own cattle.

Trying metaphor... probably failing at it.

In which I attempt to be a writer.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5552: Aug 31st 2014 at 7:54:50 PM

I'm somewhat anti-SoCaS myself. I mean, there's a point where political correctness goes too far. Like destroying a World War I monument because it happens to have a cross on it, or not considering religious organizations as charities, or some states erecting a "holiday tree".

Though I guess that's more anti-Political Correctness Gone Mad than anti-SoCaS. I guess.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Shadsie Staring At My Own Grave from Across From the Cemetery Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Staring At My Own Grave
#5553: Aug 31st 2014 at 8:30:03 PM

[up]

I would call that Political Correctness Gone Mad , not reasonable Separation of Church and State. The latter means that the government cannot tell you what to believe or how to pray, nor can they decide to use some religious law to govern everyone unless said law when through the whole voting/democratic process.

People bitching and moaning that some *historical* monument to war dead that's stood in a public square for years offends their poor little eyes is just petty - and, frankly, looking for a fight where one never was. That stuff gets weird, too. I mean, in my neck of the woods, roughly, there was a big marketplace Christmas Village that was turned into the Holiday Village. On one hand, I understand why they'd change the name of it, being on city property and with a need to include non-Christian winter holidays, however, the place has vendors selling the same stuff and everything decked out in traditional "Christmas," anyway.

In high school, I had an art teacher my Senior year who let people bring in music to listen to while they did their projects. I brought in a tape of Christmas music during holiday-time that I assured was all inoffensive secular stuff (Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer and the like), and the teacher said "NO RELIGION IN CLASS!" - She was a very proud atheist. (We actually got along even though, at the time, I was an OBNOXIOUS conservative Baptist. I was OBNOXIOUS as a teen, trust me). I protested, saying I'd personally edited out anything that wasn't secular, commercial-ish / winter stuff, and she contended that "because it celebrates Christmas, it's still religious." At the same time, some kids brought in their alternative and metal stuff that blared "GOD IS DEAD!!!" and she found no problem with that. This teacher was kind of "vigilant" and paranoid about So Ca S in school. I don't think she was afraid of getting fired for allowing things - on the contrary, she didn't think our school was strict enough with enforcing "no religion" in the public school. I don't mean to make her sound like an ogre, she was a really great teacher and I learned loads of art lessons from her. She was even very nice, but just had this one issue she had a lot of zeal about.

—- It's just, too this day, I fail to see how Jingle Bells and Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer were "religious" while Nine Inch Nails songs about the death of God and seeing people in Hell were "not-religious and perfectly acceptable."

So, yeah, I've seen the crazy political correctness stuff first-hand. I think people on both sides of the issue have trouble distinguishing between So Ca S and "politically/culturally correct."

In which I attempt to be a writer.
PersistentMan My journal is ready Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
My journal is ready
#5554: Aug 31st 2014 at 9:19:58 PM

I see...

On another topic, is it just me or the General Mythology and religious thread became a new atheis/agnostic/anti-theist thread?

More specifically, it became another religious bashing thread.

edited 31st Aug '14 9:21:11 PM by PersistentMan

Have you forgotten the face of your father, troper?
Shadsie Staring At My Own Grave from Across From the Cemetery Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Staring At My Own Grave
#5555: Aug 31st 2014 at 10:01:10 PM

[up]

I read some of the latter bits of it a while back, and...yeah, I just kind of stopped going to it. Just reading, mind you. I don't think I posted in it any.

It seems like the way of the Internet, though.

I mean, I read a lot of specifically religious blogs at Patheos - as in, it says right in the section that they're "Progressive Christian" or "Evangelical" or "Catholic". I even read the "Pagan" section ones sometimes, as they can be interesting. There is an Atheist section and it is robust (with occasional posts that interest me, too). However, it seems like whenever the Christian-section bloggers post about a broad ethical issue or an issue of scripture and tradition that makes any kind of poke at the common worldly sensibilities, a lot of very angry people who would reduce their stress by staying to the Atheist section flood the Christian blogs... In other words, I've found myself reading stuff on the Christian sections with comments sections full of people who seem to forget that the blogger is, in fact, a Christian and that they have wandered into one of the Christian sections.

Getting mad at a Christian blogger for saying they believe in resurrection is like getting mad at a cat for bathing itself with its tongue.

News articles dealing with anything remotely religious on major sites are even worse.

One of the Tropers in putting up a thread on similar subjects in On-Topic started off his post with "There Are No Theists on the Internet" as a joke. It feels like it's only half a joke.

In fact, the Internet is the reason why I am suspicious of polls... I mean, I think polls and reports that proclaim stuff like "80 percent of Americans are Christian" have to be pure crap or skewed in some way. I think that a lot of people are "culturally" Christian and might say certain things among family and community, but on the Internet, with some anonymity, their true feelings come out. Especially in nerdy circles, "There Are No Theists On the Internet."

edited 31st Aug '14 10:32:52 PM by Shadsie

In which I attempt to be a writer.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5556: Aug 31st 2014 at 11:49:42 PM

[up][up][up]Ugh. Shit like that's exactly what I have a problem with. I understand reasonable SoCaS, but way too many people interpret it as "state-enforced atheism, which is okay because it's technically not a belief system".

Never mind that the First Amendment outlaws both enforcement and denial of religious practices.

"Separation of Church and State" is one of those once-good phrases that have changed over the years to something horrible.

edited 31st Aug '14 11:52:05 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#5557: Aug 31st 2014 at 11:59:43 PM

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Shadsie Staring At My Own Grave from Across From the Cemetery Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Staring At My Own Grave
#5558: Sep 1st 2014 at 12:32:53 AM

I wonder if we have such fights in the Western, English-speaking world and in America especially because none of us know what actual persecution is. It's not that we do not have problems, various kinds of discrimination (racism is still an issue, sexism is still an issue), but if I am remembering history correct, we haven't had much in the ways of knock-down-drag-out persecution over worldviews in eons...

I've read some theorizing on a Prog. Christian blog analyzing the "fundamentalist" need to feel persecuted (theology saying that real followers of Christ suffer, but in America, we don't suffer much, so some need to manufacture hurts). I'm not sure that's the whole picture, but I see other groups doing it, too. American Christians haven't an inkling what the victims of ISIS are going through right now. Likewise, I don't think American atheists have any inkling about the real terror their own suffer in other countries. (There was an article on Cracked a while back about an atheist who was born and raised in Bangledesh and is trying to stay in the United States because he will be literally in danger of death if he goes back to his home country).

What's left to us is a culture that weaves myths (our movies and pop culture) about plucky underdogs fighting for right in the face of adversity and almost a sense that being "persecuted" means anything you do in turn is justifiable and right, coming, perhaps, with even a duty to be unnecessarily hostile and jerkish. So, in the absence of an actual life-or-death struggle, we wind up at each others throats for things people in other times and other places would roll their eyes at.

I think a Festivus pole made of beer cans is well within people's rights and is funny - but still think it's immature. Not exactly Katniss vs. The Capitol stuff.

In which I attempt to be a writer.
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#5559: Sep 1st 2014 at 7:01:45 AM

@Persistent Man If you think the thread is crossing a line you could always just ask a mod to have a look.

I can agree with the idea that Christian fundamentalism (at least the Pentecostal branches I'm familiar with) rely largely on creating the idea of a conflict that isn't there in order to better control their subjects. Most of the groups I saw insisted on creating this amorphous, faceless foe that was lurking in the shadows and around every corner, just waiting to "persecute" them at the drop of a pin. This wasn't limited to atheists either, but any Christians that they felt didn't follow their ideals.

The Church of God of Prophecy for instance has a festival once a year at their oldest graveyard. Once the festivities start and they have a prayer of remembrance for their past members and for the blessing of current and future generations, the rest of the day is devoted to a string of absolutely savage, hate filled tirades about the "evil" of the Baptist denominations and how at any given moment they may strike, haul off your children, burn your farm, shoot your dog, etc etc. It worked fairly well too, at least in keeping the current majority of members united against a common foe(though, given the largely baptist community they're in, they aren't making new friends very quickly).

Since 9/11, most of the Pentecostal denominations have switched over to Atheists and Muslims as the great "Other" to fear and loathe. I can remember in my own community when they proposed a series of more-and-more extreme demonstrations and activities in town; they would inform us before hand that atheists were "just waiting!" to shut down their activities, and when they finally got too loud and out of control someone filed a noise complaint or something and the whole self fulfilling prophecy came to pass.

I suppose that they for as much as they preach about the moral/spiritual challenges the church faces, having an enemy to look at is more uniting. Why worry yourselves with laws and sin and whatnot when Steve the Atheist who lives down the road is actively corrupting the souls of children and plotting our doom at this very moment?

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#5561: Sep 1st 2014 at 10:27:47 AM

Never mind that the First Amendment outlaws both enforcement and denial of religious practices.
I don't think the First Amendment allows for religious practices that violate other parts of the constitution (human sacrifize for example). Religion is not a free pass to do whatever you like.

Separation of Church and State" is one of those once-good phrases that have changed over the years to something horrible.
How so?

a sense that being "persecuted" means anything you do in turn is justifiable and right, coming, perhaps, with even a duty to be unnecessarily hostile and jerkish.
This is spot on. And not limited to religious groups either.

edited 1st Sep '14 3:15:54 PM by Antiteilchen

Shadsie Staring At My Own Grave from Across From the Cemetery Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Staring At My Own Grave
#5562: Sep 1st 2014 at 11:16:47 AM

Carbon-Mantis - Have you ever visited this blog? http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/

His "Rise of the Satanazis" posts might be of interest to you. Most of his B-movie titled "Satanazis" posts fall under this tag: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/tag/satanic-baby-killers/ - Be forewarned, the blogger also puts his abortions views on there under the general tag (and he's pro-choice), so if you're looking specifically for persecution-related posts, you'll have to be careful in clicking.

There's a quote by C.S. Lewis he brings out sometimes about how if you read about some atrocity in the paper and then later find out that things weren't so bad or it was all just a mis-reported misunderstanding, if you aren't relieved at that and are actually disappointed that people weren't as evil as you originally feared and get angry, wanting things to be worse... it's pretty much time to take an accounting of your soul.

Maybe this (combined with me being a bit of a rebellious artist, by nature, myself), is why I choose to see attempts by people to deliberately "piss off the squares" as more funny than angry-making a majority of the time. If the people you're trying to piss off are laughing and enjoying the thing, you've just been robbed of your goal to offend.

I do get genuinely offended by things people say, but as can be seen on this very thread, it tends to be "punching down" offense - I find my personal fight seems to gravitate toward and get really on-fire ranty for is issues of mental illness (which is not a specifically religious issue). I get offended at everybody over it because there's loads of judgement and misunderstanding from all spheres. And unlike a cross on a public monument or statues of Bahomet, or any of the other belief-snit-fights Americans get into, the thing I really get on fire angry over has me a light because the misunderstandings and discrimination ACTUALLY KILLS PEOPLE.

In which I attempt to be a writer.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#5563: Sep 1st 2014 at 11:43:06 AM

Satanazis! LOL [lol]

Epic evil name.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5564: Sep 1st 2014 at 2:55:26 PM

[up][up][up]That's not what I was trying to say, though.

And I already explained what I meant by that. (You messed up the quote markup, by the way.) Nobody uses "separation of church and state" to talk about preventing government-mandated religion anymore, when people bring it up nowadays, it's usually in the context of "people shouldn't say anything remotely religious in public ever".

edited 1st Sep '14 2:58:25 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#5565: Sep 1st 2014 at 3:11:31 PM

Not true. People often bring up the "seperation of church and state" card when some folks go all "gays shouldn't get married/abortion should be outlawed/women should dress in x way e.t.c. becaue my religion tells me so." Which i'd say is pretty reasonable.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5566: Sep 1st 2014 at 3:15:01 PM

[up]That's because you live around reasonable people. I'm not that lucky.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#5567: Sep 1st 2014 at 3:21:53 PM

I live in Greece :/

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Ghostninja109 from there, not here. Since: Aug, 2011
#5568: Sep 1st 2014 at 8:29:11 PM

[up][up][up]Those are the things that people most visibly go for when trying to legislate based on faith. What a lot of politically active religious groups don't realize is that it's because fundamentalists will try to use laws to force other to live as they to that the government isn't allowed to favor or discriminate against. Too many bad things happen when people say "this should be banned because BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE". Overall, I think that a lot of fundamentalist groups have an "It's All About Me" view of these issues.

edited 1st Sep '14 8:29:41 PM by Ghostninja109

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5569: Sep 2nd 2014 at 3:19:56 AM

[up]Yeah, they try to justify it, but... No, Dad, the United States will not literally explode with the wrath of God if gay marriage is legalized.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Shadsie Staring At My Own Grave from Across From the Cemetery Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Staring At My Own Grave
#5571: Sep 2nd 2014 at 11:26:21 AM

[up][up]

I know that it is probably futile to try to argue, but, perhaps it could be pointed out that earthquakes and hurricanes and tornados happen to the "just" as well as the "wicked."

I mean, reading about tornados striking the Midwest and Bible-beltish areas not long ago on Huffington Post came with combox chatter of "Yay! Their God finally got the right target for once!" (You know, because the comment-turds at Huff Po hate us, and a lot of people, but are too lazy to actually roll up their sleeves and do anything about it).

There is also a matter of perception in natural disasters. I live outside of Philly and experienced the worst winter of my life. I was informed by the natives (my guy) that it was, indeed, an unusually bad winter, but wasn't unheard of. He was born during a blizzard in a winter like the one we just had. I've only been out here about ten years. Also, I grew up in southern Arizona, where an *inch* of snow would have caused all sorts of mayhem, yet the summer Monsoon with giant dust storms were a normal thing.

So, no, I doubt America will explode because we're legalizing the existence of unusual families. At least not any more than it explodes normally.

edited 2nd Sep '14 11:31:29 AM by Shadsie

In which I attempt to be a writer.
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#5572: Sep 3rd 2014 at 2:36:33 PM

It amazes me how a Christian can be so ignorant of the misogyny seen in the Bible.

LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#5573: Sep 3rd 2014 at 2:41:10 PM

That's why you gotta recognize that certain parts of the Bible are simply human values from a different era, inserted into the word of God. And move on.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#5574: Sep 3rd 2014 at 2:43:38 PM

But you try and tell that to some people and they act like you just screamed that God is dead.

LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#5575: Sep 3rd 2014 at 2:49:01 PM

Well, some people also think the Holocaust was just exaggerated death figures of typhoid fever. You can't change everyone's mind.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

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