I think the moral worth taking away is that reading really is, ultimately, a purely subjective experience, to the point where two people can be at cross purposes without even realising it - and that, with that in mind, failure to communicate only makes matters worse, whether you do so by assuming bad faith and going straight for the jugular without ever once actually explaining the nature of your grievance, or by disregarding the opinions of those who criticise you and making light of that which you don't understand, or by shutting your eyes and your mouth and covering your ears and assuming that everything will sort itself out on its own.
That and that chucking death threats around makes you look like a douchebag no matter what side of the argument you're on, but I'd like to think everybody involved knew that already.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staffa) make it easier to get away with raping women: for example, by failing to process evidence from rape kits, or by accepting low conviction rates for rapes compared other crimes, by doubting the testimonies of rape victims in ways that are not present for other crime victims, by thinking “only monsters” rape and refusing to believe a nice guy could do it etc., b) make women more vulnerable to rape or deny the effects rape has on all women not only those who are actually raped: for example, by thinking rape is inevitable when cultural aspects can make rape unacceptable, or thinking only women can prevent rape and there is little men could do to prevent it, c) make rape more effective at curtailing the freedom of rape victims: for example by making many spaces ones in which victims feel vulnerable, or by failing to create safe spaces, or d) make rape more effective by curtailing the freedom of all women: for example, by offering rape prevention advice to women that requires curtailing our freedom or by thinking that the only way men could prevent rape is by “protecting” women rather than challenging men’s behaviour.
I don't see how the response comic has much to do with rape culture as per these criteria. It would seem that there are to different arguments taking place.
But, again, perpetuating rape culture does not require that the person doing so is pro-rape. All that is required is that what is done makes women less safe in public spaces or at conventions. Jerry thinks that there are “hundreds of tacit assumptions” that under gird an understanding of rape culture, but there is really only one: specifically, the assumption that rape is akin to terrorism because it has an effect on all women, not just the direct victims of the crime. Jerry positions his own view as neutral or “self-evident,” but in fact, his view is also under girded by “tacit assumptions:” specifically, he assumes that rape is an individual crime and there is no way to contribute to rape unless you actually rape someone.
I don't get it. I cannot make the logic leap from Tycho is being a dick to feminists to 9/11. I think this metaphor really breaks down when the author continually states that rape is like terrorism but then says you don't need to be pro-rape or even consciously aware of it. What? Terrorism is (normally) a political point made through fear and destruction. Rape is a horrible act, but trying to say it's like terrorism is just silly.
It's like terrorism in that it affects a large group, rather than just the people it was perpetrated against. I think what the author is getting at is that 9/11 was a blow against all of America, not just those people who were affected by it. In the same way rape is a blow against all women and vulnerable people, not just the one person who was raped.
Be not afraid...The response comic reinforces the view that rape is a crime committed by individual bad people against other individuals, their victims. In doing so, it makes the notion that rape is a societal problem which creates a general climate of fear (in which women may be more vulnerable to rape, and will certainly be perceived as being so, which may be harmful to their freedom) open to ridicule, helping to ensure that such matters are not addressed. In this sense, it's similar to terrorism, which also operates by influencing large groups of people to create an atmosphere more conducive to the goal of perpetuating more terror, although terrorists do so to further an agenda, and the Penny Arcade guys obviously did not.
It might be helpful to think about it in terms of positive liberty versus negative liberty. Forbidding comic authors from writing about rape would restrict their negative liberty. Turning PAX into an uncomfortably misogynistic-seeming place that no rape survivor would want to attend would restrict their positive liberty.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffOkay, I can see where they get the comparison now but I still think it's wildly inappropriate. So how does the dickwolf or the response comic fit into this?
EDIT to reply to bobbys post
But rape is a crime committed by bad people against other people. It obviously has other far reaching effects and can generally screw up people but so do other crimes, why is rape so different?
edited 14th Feb '11 8:29:02 PM by thatguythere47
Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?That was the response comic. The response comic basically said that the only people to blame for rapes was the individual rapists, and society had nothing to do with it at all.
The dickwolf shirt is restricting women's freedom by creating places were they feel unsafe. I know that if I was a rape survivor, I wouldn't want to go to a place where people might be wearing 'lol rape' tshirts.
Be not afraid...So, you get extra rights to feel offended because you happened to be the victim of a crime?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PTSD triggers are not fun things, Fighteer. Besides, going around a convention with a bunch of folks in T-shirts saying 'yay rape!' puts you in a kind of intimidatory environment, regardless of whether it's happened to you yet or not. The closest analogy I can think of is being a black guy going to a convention where T-shirts with designs of Klansman-masks and nooses are the in thing.
and technically that's true, if you use the definition of rape as "the offence of forcing a person, esp a woman, to submit to sexual intercourse against that person's will." Society didn't rape these people, other people did.
Your second point I don't get. The shirts aren't lol rape. They're lol stupid shakesvale
Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?{{So, you get extra rights to feel offended because you happened to be the victim of a crime?}}
No, one's offense carries more weight if one suffered a horrible, traumatic act, such as rape which thus results in PTSD in its victims...I think that's supposed to be the idea. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I just shared the link because I thought it made a compelling case as to what "rape culture" was and how it was distinct from the argument that violent video games are murder simulators turning you into the next school shooters.
But it's not a good argument. It leans entirely on society being a part of rape or enabling being true and I have not found any facts to back that up.
Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?The intent of the shirts is 'lol stupid Shakesville'. The dickwolves-as-characters, though, are by now heavily associated with rape, and whilst that was cool when they were played up as some horrible-if-comically-ridiculous menace (as in the initial comic), you can sort of see why a 'Dickwolf Affiliation League' vibe puts out rather a different message.
To continue my analogy, suppose that the Klan T-shirts came about because the comic made a joke about people's indifference towards racism in modern America, a blog took it the wrong way, and the comic's creators wanted to launch a Take That! at said blog. Now, that's fine and dandy... but you've still ended up flooding your convention with intimidating, racist imagery.
What's precedent ever done for us?The response comic ridicules the notion that reading a comic about rape will cause somebody to commit rape. This is the hypodermic needle model of media effects, and is entirely deserving of ridicule - but it has nothing to do with the criticisms which were actually being levelled at the comic in question, which was being accused (mistakenly, I think, but that's by the by) of perpetuating rape culture, not of directly causing rape or even necessarily of directly or indirectly influencing rapists themselves.
Rape is not inherently unique in this regard, but you can't divorce issues like this one from the society in which they exist.
If a rape has been committed, and I do not know the rapist and have made no statement in response to the rape, but I have contributed to a climate which made it easier for the rape to be committed or which makes society inclined to downplay or ignore it, am I blameless?
Although, actually, I don't think it's useful to think of these things in terms of blame so much as cause and effect. I might not have committed any crime under those circumstances, but my actions have indirectly caused harm to another person nevertheless.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffSociety has done pretty much everything it can to discourage rape. We also discourage murder, theft, drug use, unprotected sex, war and generally douchery and it still happens, because people are assholes.
![]()
But the only people who will know what the shirts mean are shakesville and the other people who followed this. They look like sports shirts. If I didn't know about the controversy I'd assume the shirts are for people in a PA guild or something.
But what exactly can be done? What would need to be done to stop such a "rape culture?" Would rape have to be put upon a special shelf where it cannot ever been made fun of or made light? That would indeed be a scary world.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/12/1/tis-season-buy-shit/
shirt is at the bottom.
edited 14th Feb '11 9:03:36 PM by thatguythere47
Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?I don't think it has. I also think that in order to understand the "rape culture" argument you need to consider the possibility that it hasn't.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffOn the day it was launched, Gabe put a mock PTSD trigger warning in one of his posts (although Tycho announced the shirts).
This was the point when someone pointed out the debacle to me, and at the time the way it combined really did feel like they were making a "Team lol-rape" to me. It was the combo of the trigger mockery and the fact they chose to make it a sports team mascot, as in "this is our team, and this is what we represent".
They should have gone with a "Don't be a dickwolf" shirt. At the least that would have been funny.
edited 14th Feb '11 9:02:54 PM by TrapperZoid
![]()
![]()
Not really. Society is doing a lot to discourage rape, yes, and personally I think we have it better than any time period so far. But it's not doing everything.
It's small ubiquitous things. Stuff like romantic comedies where the girl falls into a guys arms because he made a romantic gesture, which enforces the idea that sex with women is something that men deserve, and that can be earned by doing a set of predetermined actions.
Even things that are meant well sometimes fall into this.
edited 14th Feb '11 9:03:30 PM by LoniJay
Be not afraid...No, we really haven't. We still play blame the victim a lot in terms of prosecuting and punishing rape. We still view familial rape as being less bad as stranger rape (even though the former is MUCH more common). Just for a couple of examples.
@Trapper My big disappointment is that they should know better. You don't fight trolldom with trolldom. You can't win those fights. (And yes, they got into fights with people I think of as trolls, as someone who used to be in those circles.)
edited 14th Feb '11 9:10:35 PM by Karmakin
Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve![]()
![]()
![]()
and I'd disagree, what more can society do to discourage rape? We've already made it known that rapists will spend several years in jail where guards will turn a blind eye to the horrible crimes inflicted on them. I cannot think of a worse punishment.
![]()
That's reaching. The intended message is that doing something romantic shows you care and are serious about a relationship.
Could you make your first part clearer please. Are you trying to say that we blame the victim in court trials or in terms of jail time? I'm confused by that first sentence. The second one is debatable. I've never heard of someone saying "well if it's only your dad whose forcing you into sex, I guess it's cool."
edited 14th Feb '11 9:20:12 PM by thatguythere47
Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?By the time you've sent somebody to gaol it's too late, and it really doesn't matter how much they get punished after that because the damage has been done. Punishment-as-deterrent has limited value because most people don't believe they'll be caught.
Most attempts to address the problem of rape still start with the assumption that rape is something which happens to women who are out and who aren't being sufficiently careful. This is blaming the victim, and it ignores the fact that rapes are typically committed by people the victim already knows.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

This
is a good place to understand what "Rape Culture" is to the uninitiated. Warning: Not for those who are intolerant of long, epic (literally so, not in the more recent, overused "epic fail" context) posts regarding academic arguments. The link is basically a blogpost that explains rape culture as a systemic crime rather than an individual crime, and basically tries to make an earnest attempt to educate.
edited 14th Feb '11 7:24:40 PM by IronCurtain