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Michael So that's what this does Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
So that's what this does
#51: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:09:55 PM

I think what people really didn't like was seeing their actions in a videogame put into a context of rape and shown for what they really are. wow characters, due to the Crapsack World they are forced to exist in, do not leave good in their wake.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#52: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:32:18 PM

Ironically, the actual World Of Warcraft has advanced its quest design quite a bit since its release, with the phasing system allowing some very strong aversions of Perpetually Static. While not all zones are like this, in many places, once you complete the questlines, stuff does change to show that you won the battle or saved the villagers.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Myrmidon The Ant King from In Antartica Since: Nov, 2009
The Ant King
#53: Feb 8th 2011 at 3:15:59 PM

A couple things, though: he doesn't seem to get that what a lot of people are objecting to isn't necessarily the original comic. Many people didn't read the comic as "pro-rape", and understood that the punchline hinged on the idea that rape was bad. But that absolutely does not excuse the subsequent responses to criticism (making a "TEAM DICKWOLVES" t-shirt, generally being taunting and dismissive, and denying that they might have done anything to warrant the backlash).

Also, he still seems to be tacitly disagreeing that rape culture really exists. Statements like "The only people who are pro-rape are rapists."... it's not exactly wrong, but it minimizes the issue. Yes, rapists must be held personally responsible for their crimes. But we live in a culture where something like one in three women and one in thirty men will experience rape or sexual assault. These aren't rare, isolated incidents. It's a fucking epidemic. Ignoring that the attitudes of rapists (toward sex, toward women, toward people in general) are fostered by a larger cultural issue is reductive and unhelpful.

Kill all math nerds
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#54: Feb 8th 2011 at 3:17:55 PM

The problem isn't so much that the comic was endorsing rape. It was just that using rape as a punchline to a joke seems insensitive. Rape should not be something that people laugh at.

Be not afraid...
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#55: Feb 8th 2011 at 3:21:15 PM

It wasn't the punchline, though, either literally or figuratively speaking.

A brighter future for a darker age.
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#56: Feb 8th 2011 at 3:30:35 PM

This has grown WAY out of proportion. I don't see anything offensive here, besides the regular somewhat vulgar jokes (which I found at least somewhat funny). I mean, I just googled the shirt, and I expected it to say something like "I rape little girls until they like it". I was more or less disappointed to find little more then a small in-joke. If I were a slightly bigger fan, I'd probably get one myself.

So yeah, way out of proportion. Nothing to see here. Please move along.

GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#58: Feb 8th 2011 at 3:39:53 PM

Keep in mind a huge portion of that statistic is pressured or abusive sex from current or cohabiting partner.

Which is still really bad of course, but the image people like to put across with that statistic is that 1 in 3 women will get back-alley jumped or something when really it's mostly domestic abuse.

[down]You're by no means alone in that thought. It's the same as when people get paranoid about strangers abducting children — usually it's someone quite well known, and all that mindset does is take focus away from where the problem really lies.

edited 8th Feb '11 4:18:27 PM by Pykrete

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#59: Feb 8th 2011 at 4:08:08 PM

I don't think that's the image people want to put across. I think it rather disturbing when people assume that rape is something that happens only in dark alleyways and that rapists are always complete strangers.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#60: Feb 8th 2011 at 4:30:09 PM

Rapists are most often people known to the victim. Which is an interesting datum but irrelevant to Penny Arcade as a creative work. It's people making mountains out of molehills, deliberately, to make a point.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#61: Feb 8th 2011 at 9:25:26 PM

Marital Rape is still rape. And that's basically one of the major points of the rape culture concept: Even though statistics show most rape/sexual assault comes from people the victim knows, people thinking it's only "really" rape when it's a stranger in a dark alley.

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Autochton Since: Dec, 1969
#62: Feb 12th 2011 at 8:01:57 AM

This, this whole thread? Rape culture in action, people. People saying "But it's just a joke" are perpetrating rape culture. Saying that is indirectly saying that rape is not something to take so seriously, that it's perfectly ordinary, nothing to take note of. It's not. Rape, in ANY form is a devastating, heinous violation, destructive to your emotional health in ways that it's hard to fathom without being there to see it first hand. It literally changes your life to go through. And not in a good way.

Why am I angry about this? Because this shit, this is going on in my back yard. I am a gamer, and I do not want insensitive, immature dickheads like Gabe, Tycho or their supporters speaking for me. I absolutely do not want @teamrape on Twitter to be a voice ANYONE hears. I do want gaming culture as a whole to be welcoming to women, including rape survivors - and it is not at present, as is clearly evidenced by this entire debacle, and the yawning 'meh' of the rape culture endemic in gaming.

The original comic was... not that bad, to be honest. It could even be interpreted as speaking out against rape culture. Someone on Shakesville got upset about it (and yes, I can see how it's triggery - it feeds exactly into being ignored or laughed off when, say, telling someone about a rape you went through, something that happens with alarming regularity), and wrote a guest blog about it. That got back to G&T, and they decided that, hey, the best response was to be raging dickheads about it, and harrass and victimize people who are already marginalized and victimized by society at large as it is. Way to go, you big men, you. Then followed a long line of Fan Dumb, including, by the way, threats and wishes of death and/or rape on people speaking against PA - including rape survivors. Which was responded to by saying "Oh, let's move on from this"... to people who specifically CANNOT move on from what was done to them. Only when someone reciprocated, returning the favour by threatening those dear to Gabe and Tycho, THEN they spoke up and all their fans were all "making threats is baaad!" I know a word for those who are perfectly okay with a morally corrupt action until it targets themselves. I'm sure you do too.

Incidentally, the most charitable reading I could ever make of a Dickwolves teeshirt is "I think rape is nothing special". It goes downhill from there. If you wear it not knowing what it's about, you are merely foolish and ignorant. If you wear it knowing what it is, then you are not a person I want anywhere near me, my loved ones, or anyone else, really.

Myrmidon The Ant King from In Antartica Since: Nov, 2009
The Ant King
#63: Feb 12th 2011 at 8:19:09 AM

Laconic version.

Kill all math nerds
DanEile Inexplicable Student from Ireland Since: May, 2010
Inexplicable Student
#64: Feb 12th 2011 at 8:40:25 AM

I haven't read up on the death threat itself, but I find it far, far more sickening than a fictionalised rape by a mythological character. Christ, there's more fictional rape in the Goddamn Bible.

The irony is of course that whichever idiot made the threat in the first place somehow thought that threatening people who were completely uninvolved with the situation was somehow more excusable than a humorous webcomic.

edited 12th Feb '11 8:40:46 AM by DanEile

"You can only come to the morning through the shadows."
Justice4243 Writer of horse words from Portland, OR, USA Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Brony
Writer of horse words
#65: Feb 12th 2011 at 8:43:10 AM

I think there is a line where Game and Tycho invited some of this stuff on themselves. Most people who feel this way place that line on the shirt.

However, their initial reactions to the whole thing are quite understandable. As I pointed out, this is not the first comic they’ve done regarding rape as a sort of “punch line.” They don’t do it often, but its part of their repertoire of Refuge in Audacity. This is a comic where the main character murder each other, often, and graphically. Hell, they routinely threaten and perform violence on relatively innocent people. Gender has often not been an issue, and after over a decade of this dark internet humor, people pick out what must seem to them a rather arbitrary comic to be angry about.

So yes, “rape culture” is bad, but so is “murder culture”, “theft culture”, and “genocide culture.” And yet, no one complains about “those cultures”, except for maybe the odd Politician who gets labeled an out of touch adult who probably thinks the internet can get clogged if we put too much in the tubes.

But on some level, they’re right. As a culture, we probably shouldn’t be encouraging this sort of humor, and it’s certainly the sort of thing that’s going to drastically change our perceptions of what’s “right and decent” in the future.

But this isn’t “rape culture”, It’s just another aspect of dark humor. And to single this issue out seems pretty damn random, especially when some of the proponents of “rape culture is bad” are willing to threaten woman and child murder. Pushed to it or not, this issue has highlight the seemingly arbitrary nature of the argument. When “rape is bad,” but “murder of the innocent is not” then it’s rather hard to make a convincing argument.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.
Autochton Since: Dec, 1969
#66: Feb 12th 2011 at 8:56:59 AM

[up]"“rape culture” is bad, but so is “murder culture”, “theft culture”, and “genocide culture.” And yet, no one complains about “those cultures”"

Primarily because they only exist in places where civilization is questionable. Genocide culture existed very well in Bosnia-Hercegovina in the 1990's, do you think jokes about it would have been fine then? Incidentally, how much more likely do you think you are to know someone who was raped than someone who was murdered, including in a genocide? I do not find theft to be anywhere near as nasty a violation as those, so I'm just going to pretend you didn't commit that false equivalence.

[up]"But this isn’t “rape culture”, It’s just another aspect of dark humor."

Yes, rape culture is in fact exactly what it is. That you think it is not, actually underscores the argument that it is, because rape culture is when rape is viewed as commonplace, when rape victims and their allies are pushed to staying silent. So, actually, it's exactly what's happening when someone like, say, you, says that this is nothing big and important. Yes, it is important. Because every day people are hurt by shit like this, and if nobody speaks out against it, it just continues.

[up]"And to single this issue out seems pretty damn random, especially when some of the proponents of “rape culture is bad” are willing to threaten woman and child murder. Pushed to it or not, this issue has highlight the seemingly arbitrary nature of the argument. When “rape is bad, ” but “murder of the innocent is not” then it’s rather hard to make a convincing argument."

Did you miss the part where apparently threatening death to and wishing more rape upon rape survivors was largely okay with Gabe and Tycho? Apparently to them and their yes-men, "murder of the innocent is bad" but "rape and murder of people I disagree is not". Also, there was ONE, count it, one single threat against anyone not on the rape-survivor-allied side. I don't have a count of how many flew the other way, but it was a bit more. Just a bit. And those threats went ignored for SIX MONTHS.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#67: Feb 12th 2011 at 9:09:33 AM

Autocthon, "Rape culture" is at best a gross exaggeration and at worst a complete myth invented to justify misandry. And the original joke wasn't even about rape. So, hey, enjoy your nice soapbox. Your absurd strawmanning of Gabe and Tycho doesn't make you look any better.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:10:00 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Justice4243 Writer of horse words from Portland, OR, USA Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Brony
Writer of horse words
#68: Feb 12th 2011 at 9:41:12 AM

Primarily because they only exist in places where civilization is questionable. Genocide culture existed very well in Bosnia-Hercegovina in the 1990's, do you think jokes about it would have been fine then? Incidentally, how much more likely do you think you are to know someone who was raped than someone who was murdered, including in a genocide? I do not find theft to be anywhere near as nasty a violation as those, so I'm just going to pretend you didn't commit that false equivalence.

Oh please, people don’t survive murder and genocide, but have families members who have to move on without their loved ones. Establishing “rape” as worse crime is nothing short of ridiculous.

And if you’re going to drag “level of egregiousness” into this whole debate, genocide is definitely trumps anything else mentioned. And saying it as “it wouldn’t have been funny in the 90s”, is missing the point entirely.

Perhaps it’s just “not funny”, perhaps none of this is. But picking up a single aspect and saying “this, THIS is not funny” is certainly going to win you some strange looks.

Yes, rape culture is in fact exactly what it is. That you think it is not, actually underscores the argument that it is, because rape culture is when rape is viewed as commonplace, when rape victims and their allies are pushed to staying silent. So, actually, it's exactly what's happening when someone like, say, you, says that this is nothing big and important. Yes, it is important. Because every day people are hurt by shit like this, and if nobody speaks out against it, it just continues.

This is not some statement that “rape is ok” that we should be “ok with rape”. The creators of the comic certainly didn’t see it that way and most people here don’t. And if you really think that’s the logic that’s being employed here, why aren’t you accusing the two of being ok with “murder” or any of the other things mentioned.

Rape is a horrible, horrible thing that’s touched the lives of people directly and indirectly. We’d almost undoubtedly be better off it was eliminated from culture entirely. But directing this much energy to attacking two internet humorists is definitely not the way to go about it when that energy could be spent to getting people to report when they’ve been attacked.

Did you miss the part where apparently threatening death to and wishing more rape upon rape survivors was largely okay with Gabe and Tycho? Apparently to them and their yes-men, "murder of the innocent is bad" but "rape and murder of people I disagree is not". Also, there was ONE, count it, one single threat against anyone not on the rape-survivor-allied side. I don't have a count of how many flew the other way, but it was a bit more. Just a bit. And those threats went ignored for SIX MONTHS.

So, two wrongs makes a right?

And these aren’t “yes-men.” Gabe and Tycho don’t have acolytes that do their bidding for them. You already potholed Fan Dumb. I’m not sure why you’re now trying to level more responsibility against these two.

Also “rape-survivor-allied”? I weep for mankind if there was indeed a side who assumed the others where against rape-surviors.

edited 12th Feb '11 9:45:02 AM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.
Kino Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Californicating
#69: Feb 12th 2011 at 10:09:40 AM

Let me guess; somebody couldn't take a joke?

Justice4243 Writer of horse words from Portland, OR, USA Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Brony
Writer of horse words
#70: Feb 12th 2011 at 10:14:03 AM

Well there is definitely some nuances here beyond that, and I think you’ve inadvertently stumbled on the sort of response that made one side escalate their manner of attack.

That being said, I’m starting to see how this thing spun out of control. An unsuspecting group of people get labeled “pro-rapist” or the at the very least get accused of being indifferent to rape.

No surprise that they took offence.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.
Autochton Since: Dec, 1969
#71: Feb 12th 2011 at 10:15:48 AM

Fighteer, you are missing an important point: Rape culture hurts men too, and this is well established among those who, you know, have a clue what they're talking about. But hey, nice martyr cloak, there.

As for you, Justice 4243, you apparently have not A) read what I actually wrote and B) read anything that actually looks at this whole debacle in any kind of detail. Let me state it for you in the clearest terms I can: THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE COMIC, IT'S ABOUT GABE AND TYCHO ACTING LIKE DICKWEEDS TO RAPE SURVIVORS. So. Can we move on now? Good.

Please show me where I, or anyone else on the rape-survivor side of the argument EVER made the claim genocide or murder, or in fact, any other crime, was 'trumped' by rape in some way. I'll wait while you look for it. What I did say is that A) murder is quite a bit rarer than rape, and B) genocide is even rarer, lastly, C) where a culture of genocide has obtained, it has not typically been the butt of ill-conceived jokes (but hey, do try telling holocaust jokes at an AIPAC meeting). Those are the things I actually said.

[up]"But directing this much energy to attacking two internet humorists is definitely not the way to go about it when that energy could be spent to getting people to report when they’ve been attacked."

You show such a lack of understanding of the problem here that I'm not even sure how to explain to you what's wrong with your sentiment. First of all, reporting a rape requires a climate in which a rape victim, who will be an emotional wreck beyond belief, can talk to someone about it. This first requires people to take rape seriously, and not just when it's a blond, white homecoming queen who's viciously assaulted and beaten bloody, then raped by a black, homeless, insane man. This is not the situation at hand, as is made clear by the last six months of hurling threats at those who have the temerity to argue against (mainly) Gabe's assholery.

[up]"So, two wrongs makes a right?"

I'm not sure I quite understand the misapprehension of ideas that would cause you to say this.

[up]"And these aren’t “yes-men.” Gabe and Tycho don’t have acolytes that do their bidding for them. You already potholed Fan Dumb. I’m not sure why you’re now trying to level more responsibility against these two."

There's Fan Dumb, and there's Fan Dumb with Word of God behind it. In this case, Gabe and Tycho made a T-shirt for the dumb fans to wear, so they could proudly display their affiliation with rape culture overtly. If G&T can't be held responsible for that trick (and don't give me that they took it down, Gabe stated he'd be wearing his to PAX), then I don't know who can.

[up]"Also “rape-survivor-allied”? I weep for mankind if there was indeed a side who assumed the others where against rape-surviors."

Rape survivors need allies (like me) in situations like these. Because right now, you sure as hell are not on their side.

lady_dreamwyn Since: Dec, 1969
#72: Feb 12th 2011 at 10:20:14 AM

Justice, I have read EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE on the Debacle Timeline. Every word.

NO ONE said the comic's statement was "rape is okay".

NO ONE said Gabe and Tycho were pro-rape or pro-rapist.

NO ONE said murder or other forms of violence were better or worse than rape.

Wait, scratch that. No one EXCEPT people trying to make these same bullshit arguments. No one EXCEPT people who are so ignorant of rape culture and what it is, they drew false equivalencies to the idea of being pro-rape. No one EXCEPT the ladies doth protesting too much i.e. Gabe, Silent Tycho, and their defenders. NO ONE. And I know because unlike you, I've read. And read. And read.

So unlike you, I know what was said. I know what the actual accusations are. I know that the person who threatened Gabe's family is a Twitter troll with no indications whatsoever of actually being connected to the argument for any reason other than trolling. Don't believe me? Look up the Twitter account ghostpostin. I know that Gabe stopped selling the Dickwolf T-shirts because he said, and I quote: "When I heard from a few people that the shirt would make them uncomfortable at PAX, that gave me pause."

He then proceeded to blare across Twitter that he'd be wearing HIS to PAX.

He mocked trigger warnings. He made snarky, sarcastic remarks about being a rape apologist. He REMAINED SILENT FOR SIX MONTHS while his readers harassed, threatened, and mocked rape survivors. It's all there on the Timeline. You can read it for yourself. In fact, you and everyone here should read it before running your mouths. You're all completely ignorant of what was actually said. You're especially ignorant of what rape culture is.

Rape culture is not "a complete myth invented to justify misandry" and you, Fighteer, can go cry me an entitled river. Rape culture is about telling rape victims to sit down, shut up, and be good little victims. It trivializes the problem, dismisses it, shuts it in the closet so it doesn't get seen. It puts the blame on women, mocks them for serious, painful violations. It makes them afraid to report what's happened to them because they could be belittled and threatened, as were the people who spoke out against Penny Arcade's response. It puts them in danger of more things than your privileged male mind can grasp.

Your words are dismissive and ignorant.

Your words are more reasons why so many rape survivors, like myself, are afraid to speak.

If you can't say anything useful, it's time for YOU to sit down and shut up.

edited 12th Feb '11 10:20:35 AM by lady_dreamwyn

Myrmidon The Ant King from In Antartica Since: Nov, 2009
The Ant King
#73: Feb 12th 2011 at 10:28:10 AM

Let me guess; somebody couldn't take a joke?
Ix-nay on the an't-cay ake-tay a oke-jay.

Kill all math nerds
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#74: Feb 12th 2011 at 10:39:47 AM

@Autocthon and dreamwyn: Bullshit. You're the ones with an entitlement complex. Rape is a horrible crime. It needs to be reported and dealt with. People who commit this crime are horrible people. However, the notion that Penny Arcade is somehow endorsing "rape culture" is absolutely ludicrous and betrays just how far into Knight Templar your movement has come. I have no respect for people who seek out things to get outraged about. It's people like you who make Moral Guardians a synonym for patronizing reactionary prudes.

edited 12th Feb '11 10:40:33 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Justice4243 Writer of horse words from Portland, OR, USA Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Brony
Writer of horse words
#75: Feb 12th 2011 at 10:50:22 AM

Please show me where I, or anyone else on the rape-survivor side of the argument EVER made the claim genocide or murder, or in fact, any other crime, was 'trumped' by rape in some way. I'll wait while you look for it. What I did say is that A) murder is quite a bit rarer than rape, and B) genocide is even rarer, lastly, C) where a culture of genocide has obtained, it has not typically been the butt of ill-conceived jokes (but hey, do try telling holocaust jokes at an AIPAC meeting). Those are the things I actually said.

I’ve read everything you’ve posted. Frankly, I find your accusation that I haven’t rather insulting as well as your general condescending attitude.

I was really looking forward to someone coming and talking about things from the other side. I didn’t know the “other side” operates by base accusations and insults. I really see how this got so crazy. People approached it with the sort of attitude you’re sporting and starting pissing everyone off.

There was a way to go about this, and someone got it right. The shirts are no longer available now because someone got a hold of Gabe and explained they would be uncomfortable at PAX with those sort of things going around. It should have ended there, but a few days later he’s posting a call to end hostilities on both sides because people decided their petty arguments over a now non-item where more important then putting energy elsewhere.

Second, this “it’s ok or not as bad to joke about horrible events if they don’t happen as often” attitude is nothing sort of baffling to me. Rape is not ok to joke about because it happens more frequently than murder? Is there a chart quantifying the number of bad things that go on in the world and at one point we’re not allowed to use them to make points humorously?

You show such a lack of understanding of the problem here that I'm not even sure how to explain to you what's wrong with your sentiment. First of all, reporting a rape requires a climate in which a rape victim, who will be an emotional wreck beyond belief, can talk to someone about it. This first requires people to take rape seriously, and not just when it's a blond, white homecoming queen who's viciously assaulted and beaten bloody, then raped by a black, homeless, insane man. This is not the situation at hand, as is made clear by the last six months of hurling threats at those who have the temerity to argue against (mainly) Gabe's assholery.

Than that is something that needs to be fixed. How we treat victims of rape and how they feel there’s no one they can turn to is something, we, as a species should address.

We live in a society where yelling “fire” if you’re being raped is considered “good advice.” There is something seriously WRONG here, but heaping that attention on a person who’s already stepped forward, apologized, and rectified the situation is gross misuse of energy.

I'm not sure I quite understand the misapprehension of ideas that would cause you to say this.

You responded to the mention of the death threat by explaining all the stuff that let up to it. It looked an awful lot like justification.

There's Fan Dumb, and there's Fan Dumb with Word Of God behind it. In this case, Gabe and Tycho made a T-shirt for the dumb fans to wear, so they could proudly display their affiliation with rape culture overtly. If G&T can't be held responsible for that trick (and don't give me that they took it down, Gabe stated he'd be wearing his to PAX), then I don't know who can.

I honestly think he shouldn't wear the shirt either, if only because it's caused enough damage. But I honestly think he probably views it as "that silly joke shirt that caused a shit storm."

You can say that their affiliating themselves with rape culture all you want, but the fact of the matter is they don’t see it that way. There’s a thread full of people who don’t see it that way. They don’t think “Rape culture” is a thing to be affiliated with unless you’re an actual rapist.

Maybe attempting to change attitudes on the subject as a whole would be a better use of time then pinning responsibility on an internet humorist, but deciding that this a subject that has “sides” and people who don’t agree with you fully are obviously not on your side is NOT the way to go about.

Rape survivors need allies (like me) in situations like these. Because right now, you sure as hell are not on their side.

And here I thought you couldn’t get any more sanctimonious. You’re not helping anyone right now. You’re causing a division where none need be and causing hurt emotions where they didn’t exist.

You logged onto a forum full of strangers and decided to accuse the whole lot of them of perpetrating this idea of rape culture. You could have expressed yourself in a more constructive manner and maybe we could have had a balanced discussion on this, but you decided to pick sides before people knew “sides” where a thing this discussion had.

If this is how you react to all similar situations you are most assuredly not the sort of ally rape survivors need.

@dreamwyn I'm not talking about the timeline.

I'm talking about this fora, this thread, this is the attitude that is being brought here.

If the people against the shirt managed to keep that sort of attitude out of the conversation between Penny Arcade in it's fans than kodus, but my current experience is really coloring my perception on the whole thing.

edited 12th Feb '11 10:54:51 AM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

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