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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#33551: Mar 2nd 2024 at 6:59:55 PM

I think the difficulty is, their business model is built on using constant crossovers to boost sales, and it's much harder to do that if a character's in a separate universe from everyone else.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#33552: Mar 2nd 2024 at 11:16:26 PM

"Like, can anyone imagine Wells' Spidey trying to do the lecture he gave Daredevil in issue #5 of Zdarsky's run? Because I sure can't." My counter-argument to this is that a lot of characters are treated differently as guest stars compared to in their own books, because as guest stars, they're slotted in to fill a narrartive role, while in their own books, the narrative is built around them. So a writer handling a character a certain way as a guest star doesn't tell you anything about how the writer would treat them in an ongoing role.

As for Spider-Gwen, I've come to the conclusion she was a character who was always going to have a relatively short shelf life. A lot of her initial popularity came from her design. Because it's a phenomenal design! I'm wearing a Spider-Gwen hoodie as I type this, and she's not even a character I have strong feelings about, it's just that damn good a design. Her initial solo series also had a lot of things going for it, with a unique spin on various characters, and a gorgeous colour palette. (Rico Renzi's role in that book's success should not be overlooked, I feel.)

But none of that was truly sustainable. Once the original creative team left, it was always going to be a huge uphill battle to keep attention on the character. And honestly, I'm not sure that's really even possible. Keeping her in her own world is something that will always have diminishing returns. Moving her to 616 alienates a lot of her remaining fans, without actually picking her up all that many new ones.

Honestly, giving her a mini-series every year might be the best way of handling the character. I don't think she can support an ongoing these days, no matter what the premise is.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#33553: Mar 3rd 2024 at 2:03:48 AM

I'm wearing a Spider-Gwen hoodie as I type this, and she's not even a character I have strong feelings about, it's just that damn good a design.

That's actually super awesome

On the alternate world thing: I thought about this a while ago, and I think being on alternate worlds is what has allowed Gwen and Miles to actually catch on. I feel like side-stories, alternate worlds etc are where the stories can be both more experimental and also stand on their own, which has lead to some breakout successes.

But the issue is that only the main universe sustains success, so you're left with this situation that you get a breakout character but they're not in the continuity that can continue supporting them for long.

And I really don't like the temporal shenanigans that saw Miles being dumped into 616 (and now Gwen) - because it makes for some weird histories. But idk how they're meant to support these characters without it.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#33554: Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:38:36 AM

This is true. I say Marvel missed their chance, but when you think about it, there never really was a chance to try, because everything interesting about Ghost-Spider-Woman-Gwen comes from her being from a different universe.

Is it?

Because a lot of younger fans of Ghost Spider like her from the shows where she's just part of Earth-616.

Secret Warriors Gwen was fantastic and had her teaming up with Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, and America Chavez. They just substituted a new person for Peter Parker.

What made Gwen awesome was her personality and complex character.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:39:53 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#33555: Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:41:59 AM

But thats not comic Gwen, its not the same character. Its a completely different deal to just have her in the same universe from the start.

Some animated specials doesn't change the comic character's backstory.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:42:46 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#33556: Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:48:40 AM

I mean...Miles is literally Ultimate Miles written into this universe.

Same would be the case.

You do a Reboot in-universe or have her move permanently.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:48:56 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#33557: Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:53:28 AM

Yes and that is a controversial move even among Miles fans. Plenty of people view the character moving to 616 as ruining him and cutting the potential he would have had in his own universe.

Miles is not a good example of the point you're trying to make.

This ties into the issue that yes Gwen staying in her own universe may not be completely sustainable, but fact of the matter moving her to 616 would reduce her to just another generic spider-lady and we already have plenty of them, most of which barely used or dead.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:54:57 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#33558: Mar 3rd 2024 at 5:53:46 AM

Weird with how the comics have Spider-Gwen obsess over how she's dead in Peter's world, she never once punched Green Goblin.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#33559: Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:19:07 AM

I mean, Miles is absolutely better in 616.

Especially since Ultimate Miles would be...dead.

Because they killed the Ultimate Universe and never supported it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#33560: Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:21:48 AM

I mean, isn't Ultimate Peter an adult now and the main hero there?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#33561: Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:23:49 AM

Heh wonder of the new Hickman run will bring in a new version of Miles at some point.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:24:02 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#33562: Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:24:48 AM

That Spider-Man is still learning to crawl.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#33563: Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:29:15 AM

Thinking about Gwen and Miles...

The new Ultimate Peter has the advantage that he's not the sole superhero with a series in that universe. So the setting supports the comic with crossovers, metaplot etc.

Which also worked well for Miles until v1 Ultimate ended. Whereas Gwen's been out on her own...

Part of me wonders if setting a couple of other books — not necessarily spider-books — in Earth-65 would have helped.

HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#33564: Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:48:49 AM

More Earth-65 development probably would have helped, yeah. It was established from the characters we have seen that things are pretty different in a number of ways, but we only actually saw a small handful of characters. Maybe a miniseries or something.

immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#33565: Mar 3rd 2024 at 7:52:16 AM

That actually raises the rather interesting idea that instead of most every book being set in 616, they instead take full advantage of the multiverse that's been established for decades and have different books be set in different continuities; one group of writers writes in 616, another in 65, another in 6160, etc..

Edited by immortaleditor on Mar 3rd 2024 at 7:53:10 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#33566: Mar 3rd 2024 at 8:20:11 AM

I mean, isn't Ultimate Peter an adult now and the main hero there?

New Ultimates is basically parasiting off the fans of the still-dead Ultimates universe.

No revival of the continuity. sad

That actually raises the rather interesting idea that instead of most every book being set in 616, they instead take full advantage of the multiverse that's been established for decades and have different books be set in different continuities; one group of writers writes in 616, another in 65, another in 6160, etc..

Spider-Girl, Spider-Gwen, and the Ultimates show how hard that is to maintain.

The Ultimates had a large dedicated fanbase of people like me who loved its more realistic Darker and Edgier tone.

And they still killed it.

Ditto Marvel 2099.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 3rd 2024 at 8:21:09 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33567: Mar 3rd 2024 at 8:38:53 AM

It’s hard to maintain interest in an alternate universe

No matter what it’s always going to be less rich, less storied, less full of character than the 616. Which will be seen as the main universe by default which makes any other universe disposable.

A strong enough concept can earn a devoted following but they’ll eventually start to drop off.

And from that point the creators try shaking things up to get eyes on the universe. Which often involves breaking things so the universe is lesser than it was before and some of the people who’ve been sticking around become alienated and stop reading.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#33568: Mar 3rd 2024 at 9:25:14 AM

[up][up] Yeah, I genuinely wanted to see more of classic Ultimate Peter's journey towards being a hero.

He only lasted a year in-universe. Which is pretty baffling considering the sheer amount of content there.

And sure, Bendis makes a lot of mistakes, but he absolutely got the voices for Peter and Norman down perfectly when he was writer.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33569: Mar 3rd 2024 at 10:50:55 AM

But thats not comic Gwen, its not the same character. Its a completely different deal to just have her in the same universe from the start.

Plus those adaptations can't use her rogues gallery.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#33570: Mar 3rd 2024 at 10:53:48 AM

Man, I miss Matt Murdock as the Kingpin mixed with a bit of the Joker.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#33571: Mar 3rd 2024 at 11:31:19 AM

[up][up]Or her supporting cast. The movies were the only place we ever even saw The Mary Janes in, after all.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#33572: Mar 3rd 2024 at 12:32:56 PM

[up]I mean, the Mary Janes are a big part of Secret Warriors.

It turns out no one gets confused by teenaged Gloria Grant and Mary Jane in 616.

There's a whole Jem and the Holograms homage episode.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WesternAnimation/MarvelRisingBattleOfTheBands

The Hand needs more personalities, give them Not-Matt Murdock as a leader and an original female black Captain America. Star Spangled Butt Kicker or whatever.

:)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 3rd 2024 at 12:38:14 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#33573: Mar 3rd 2024 at 12:44:13 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] Though the Ultimate Universe was ultimately killed off because Jeph Loeb made such a horrible enough story that it damn near tanked the setting.

I'd say it was less lack of interest and more killing the thing thay you made.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#33574: Mar 3rd 2024 at 7:47:37 PM

Loeb didn’t make the ultimate universe though.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#33575: Mar 3rd 2024 at 7:54:20 PM

[up] He did make Ultimatum, though. You know, the event comic where a shit-ton of heroes died for no reason beyond shock value (and in particular, the Blob ate the Wasp, as so lovingly displayed on the Nightmare Fuel page, also for shock value)?

Before that horror show, he also gifted us with The Ultimates 3, where it's confirmed that Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were engaged in Brother–Sister Incest, and only Captain America had a problem with it in-universe (and was treated as some out-of-touch old fogey for it), Pyro does a total 180 from his Adaptational Heroism by suddenly ditching the X-Men for the Brotherhood and attempting to (alongside Mastermind) rape Valkyrie on top of that, and Iron Man and Black Widow are revealed to have been in a Home Porn Movie that was secretly recorded by Ultron before Natasha's death.

Really, it's a damned miracle Ultimate Spider Man never descended into this kind of shock value crap (at least, to the best of my recollection), even when it tied into Ultimatum itself.

Edited by TrashJack on Mar 3rd 2024 at 11:05:53 AM

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary

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