This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.
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Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM
God, I hated that scene in Earth X. That series in general is a prime demonstration of how weirdos like Alex Ross — who not coincidentally was one of the creative minds behind Earth X — denigrate all of Peter’s other love interests at Gwen’s expense while never managing to make her look even remotely appealing and making Peter look like a loser who’s still hung up on a girl he didn’t even get along with when he was professing love for her.
The whole mini has scenes where visions of Gwen are used to blare that Gwen was Peter’s one and only true love and that when she died he lost any potential to be happy ever again because nobody could compare to Saint Gwen the Benevolent and Beautiful, on top of killing off MJ in the backstory and treating her like a nonentity PLUS the above mentioned scene where Mayday is told pointblank that Peter effectively wishes she had never been born because she dared to be born to MJ and not Gwen. It’s so fucked.
Ross is a brilliant artist and designer, but Earth X and its sequels make some very strange plot and character decisions, which aren't limited to Spider-Man.
Has it ever been acknowledged via the Spider-Verse stuff? I get the feeling it's generally left in its own little corner of the multiverse when things like that and Exiles happen.
At most a version of Peter who is a bit chubby and/or dressed as a cop shows up, because Earth X Peter put on weight as he got older and became a cop. Other than that, nobody really likes to acknowledge Earth X a ton, because while it had a lot of cool ideas it also had some… well, stuff like I just mentioned.
The idea of Celestials using planets as eggs did make it to the MCU. That’s about it.
Ross also kind of places Gwen on a pedestal in his other work, the Marvels.
Where her death is what makes Sheldon give up. I get that it's supposed to symbolize the end of the silver age but uhh.....in-universe just makes him look fair weather when worse things have happened.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"Busiek wrote (or at least scripted) that one, and there's a bunch of stuff bundled up with it. Phil's getting old and relying on an assistant now. He also gets to know Gwen before her death, as he's digging into the truth of her father's murder. And he directly sees her fall.
So, yes, it's a big thing and it's symbolising the end of the age and the fact that superheroes fail. But it's also the end of his attempt to clear Spider-Man of Captain Stacy's death, as he was about to get his journal via Gwen. And the shock of someone he knows dying.
That whole issue is about conflicting and impossible expectations of heroes, so it kind of fits. I don't personally think it's building Gwen as a character up via pedestal, or knocking Spidey down. But ymmv.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 5th 2023 at 3:02:14 PM
Earth X is full of bonkers shit, considering it was supposed to be a possible endpoint for the 616
But some of that is to be expected when Alex Ross is asked directly to his face to make up a bonkers future for the marvel U
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI think Marvels does the “Gwen on a pedestal” thing better because of all the stuff mentioned above and because Kurt Busiek was seemingly either more willing to rein in Ross’ boner for Gwen or better at writing her to be actually likable. That and the purpose of her appearance there is both symbolizing a shift in mood in the comics and having Phil realize that he’s gotten too close to the story and can’t be objective about it anymore. Two very different things from Earth X’s weird Die for Our Ship antics where Ross and Krueger all but say “that whore Mary Jane should’ve died not our blessed virgin Gwen”.
Honestly, most of Peter’s bad experiences with the black suit probably weren’t quite traumatic enough to get him to dislike the look of it and some of the worst things he went through while wearing it (like Kraven’s final hunt and being buried alive) weren’t caused by the suit specifically. So I can see why he was willing to keep it just cuz it looked good. Venom showing up though and especially Venom traumatizing Mary Jane made getting rid of the black and white a necessity; it made it way too easy for Venom’s actions to be mistaken for his and one imagines he would want a costume that doesn’t give his wife a panic attack every time she sees it.
MARVELS actually has a really dark end with Gwen's death as Sheldon witnesses Gwen Stacy' death after he's worked to try to clear Spider-Man of her father's murder. Specifically, he witnesses Spider-Man accidentally killing her.
And THAT is the moment that breaks him.
Because Marvel takes the "Spider-Man snaps her neck accidentally" take of the scene.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Well, the "snap!" sound effect's there in the original comic. Marvels tries to have it both ways - Phil's sure he heard the snap (which is replayed in the Marvels version), but acknowledges that they say it was the fall that killed Gwen, not that. Still, he heard it...
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 5th 2023 at 5:32:09 PM
Yeah, Marvels is fantastic. Using Gwen’s death as a symbolic transition point where the Silver Age dies and the Bronze Age begins because it forcibly reminds Phil that the superheroes are imperfect humans themselves capable of failure and thus shatters his idealized view of them is brilliant.
I also will say I do really love the “Peter killed Gwen by accident when he grabbed her wrong, not Goblin” take on the scene and I feel that should be the definitive read. It makes Peter’s guilt and trauma over the incident much more palpable and poignant, as well as serving as further character development by giving him a harsh reminder of how normal humans are much more fragile than him and forcing him to adapt how he rescues people in similar situations.
That too. I love reminders of just how much Peter is holding back strength wise. One of the best scenes in Superior Spider-Man is when Otto in Pete’s body punches Scorpion’s jaw off by accident and immediately has a mini nervous breakdown/tantrum over the realization that Peter was pulling his punches all those years and that Otto was never actually that big of a physical threat to him; if Spidey really wanted to, he could’ve just punched Otto’s head off his shoulders with one hit.
The spider-man killed Gwen thing by accident is always weird to me. Even if you want to argue the whiplash did that... Wouldn't it still fall on you know Goblin who you know pushed her off the building in the first place.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yeah, it’s obviously still Goblin’s fault, Peter blames Goblin for it as he should. But the accidental whiplash serves a reminder to him that he has to be more careful with how he intervenes in these situations. He can’t always just snag people mid-fall or catch them too roughly or whatever. It basically forces him to learn how to be better at reaching people.
I can’t imagine any court would consider it homicide or even manslaughter. Gwen only died because Goblin put her in a situation where Spidey had to make a snap decision where even the slightest mistake would result in her death. Peter acted to save her life and he made a spur mistake that ultimately killed her instead, but she’d have been just as dead if he didn’t act and nobody could blame him for acting too fast — hell, if he had been faster the fall and velocity wouldn’t be bad enough for the whiplash from being webbed to kill her. Even Peter’s legendary guilt complex wouldn’t stop him from recognizing that Goblin and only Goblin was to blame for what happened.
Plus, you could argue that Peter doesn’t know for sure if his webline was what killed Gwen, but the possibility of it is enough to prompt him to get better and more careful at rescues.
Considering what we know of Marvel courts, I'm pretty sure that comment would be a collective hold my beer moment for every Super-hero hating Lawyer, juror, and judge.

There was something like the House of M dream in Earth X where that version of Mayday learns that Peter subconsciously would prefer a son and Gwen as his wife.
They DO patch things up though.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"