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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#31751: Nov 4th 2023 at 7:08:20 AM

I can second him being endearing, at least in the one issue I’ve seen

Edited by Bocaj on Nov 4th 2023 at 10:09:08 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31752: Nov 4th 2023 at 7:10:01 AM

So what's his deal exactly?

I know that he's supposedly Spider-Man's sidekick that got erased but no one remembers him.

Honestly, all I like about him are the memes.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#31753: Nov 4th 2023 at 7:20:49 AM

He's been genetically modified into a spider-boy (complete with the ability to manifest fangs and spiderlike-features, but no webs) by new villain Madame Monstrosity, who experiments on other kids as well.

He escaped and ended up Spider-Man's kid sidekick for three years, and apparently knew May and others from that time.

At some point after that he got stabbed with the Spider-Verse Ret-Gone knife and, unlike its other victims, he wasn't saved in time. So when its power was reversed, Bailey came back but all trace of him in 616 was still gone.

Which is frustrating Madame Monstrosity, as she can see Bailey's "her work", and has even seen the barcode ID tattoo she gave him, but has no memory or records.

All of that also means Bailey's homeless and rebuilding his life from scratch.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 4th 2023 at 2:21:09 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31754: Nov 4th 2023 at 7:22:02 AM

Oh so he legit IS part of 616 and not an alternate universe, got it.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#31755: Nov 4th 2023 at 7:27:52 AM

That said, we've now met three of his old rogues gallery - and erasing Bailey doesn't quite explain why we've never seen them before either.

immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31756: Nov 4th 2023 at 8:30:44 AM

The whole Backstory Invader aspect of Bailey’s story is the only bad part of the character I think. While the idea of him having to rebuild his life in a world where nobody remembers him, not even his best friends and worst enemies, is an interesting exploration of the idea of comic book retcons and Remember the New Guy? as it happens in comics, the whole plot point just raises a ton of questions, feels too uncomfortably similar to really bad instances of that exact trope, deprives him of a stronger emotional connection with Peter and the other Spiders, and it needlessly complicates what could’ve been a very simple and interesting story (Peter finds Bailey after he’s been experimented on and “adopts” him to train him to use his powers responsibly, leaning into the Batman and Robin vibes).

But I do hope Bailey gets to stick around and develop past this introduction, as said, he’s a pretty good character despite it and his basic concept of Spider-Man’s Robin is actually pretty cool and grows on me more and more. I could picture a future Spider-Man comic where Peter is retired and Bailey is Spider-Man, teaching a young Mayday to use her powers as Spider-Girl.

Edited by immortaleditor on Nov 4th 2023 at 8:33:35 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31757: Nov 4th 2023 at 8:31:58 AM

Yeah but Peter adopting Bailey would just get Editorial on the ass of the writer.

So Dan Slott had to wrap it up in the usual comic book absurdity.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31758: Nov 4th 2023 at 8:35:20 AM

[up]Yeah, that’s part of why it sucks so much. You can tell the “retconned out of the timeline” element is mostly just there so Bailey isn’t, like, an actual son figure to Peter because that would make Peter an icky old person in Spider-Editorial’s eyes.

Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#31759: Nov 4th 2023 at 9:16:09 AM

90s extreme gore style and probably its because he went through Cletus' open wound when first bonding with the guy.

I've always wondered if Carnage was originally supposed to be black like Venom but was just covered in blood. It'd explain the black webbing across the body at least. Sure we know now that symbiotes come in all kinds of colors, but as the time we only had Venom as a basis.

Edited by Spirit on Nov 4th 2023 at 12:17:01 PM

#IceBearForPresident
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31760: Nov 4th 2023 at 9:28:17 AM

Honestly, I think its as simple as Carnage being red because it made him contrast with Venom color-wise and made sure they could be told apart from one another, since having both symbiotes be black would lead to confusion. [up]Does sound like an interesting idea, but I doubt that’s what they were going for.

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#31761: Nov 4th 2023 at 11:07:24 AM

Carnage was made to capitalize on Venom's popularity and that they wanted a new evil host without replacing Eddie.

So yeah checks why they made him red and blood obsessed.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#31762: Nov 4th 2023 at 4:16:46 PM

Is this entry on Betty and Veronica Switch accurate?

" In Spider-Man, fans generally recall Peter being stuck between (seemingly) carefree party girl and Fiery Red Head Mary Jane was the Veronica to sweet, Girl Next Door Gwen Stacy. Except while later adaptations would run with this characterization, Gwen was decided not like that, being more of a stuck-up, headstrong, popular girl type. Mary Jane, despite her more flighty nature at the time, was more akin to the Betty; a role she would fulfill in earnest as her and Peter's relationship improves and he found himself with a few other love interests, most notably the sultry cat burglar Black Cat. It's also possible that Steve Ditko intended for Mary Jane to be a straight example from the start. Though the character was pretty much The Ghost during his run on the series — outside regular mention from Aunt May, she only appears twice during his run and both times her face is obscured — she's dressed very formally and Aunt May thought she was housewife material. "

The Protomen enhanced my life.
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31763: Nov 4th 2023 at 5:06:06 PM

Yeah, that’s pretty accurate. Gwen in the early years was a total Alpha Bitch before Romita softened her while MJ always tended to come off as more down-to-earth in comparison even during her more “flighty party girl” portrayals.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#31764: Nov 4th 2023 at 5:23:38 PM

It's also interesting how despite the supposed rivalry the comic quickly settled into Gwen being a constant in Peter's life for better or for worse up until her death, while MJ was Put on a Bus a few times and ended up dating Harry (and made his drug problem worse).

The Protomen enhanced my life.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#31765: Nov 4th 2023 at 5:38:41 PM

Fun Fact:

Gwen's popularity as love interest got less and less so when she wasn't being a mean Veronica type. Sort of funny how Felicia Hardy in the Animated Series is the most accurate Gwen Stacy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 4th 2023 at 5:39:00 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31766: Nov 4th 2023 at 5:44:44 PM

That’s largely because Stan Lee and Romita both did intend for her to be Peter’s main love interest in the same way as Sue and Reed or Betty and Bruce or what have you, so Gwen was a constant in Peter’s life as his girlfriend and eventual wife, while MJ was a Romantic False Lead. But things didn’t shake out that way and Gwen was boring at best, annoying at worst, with Lee himself feeling that he didn’t write her convincingly as someone Peter would even want to date for long, let alone want to marry or be interesting in her own right (Stan tended to be critical of how he wrote women in his early career, and with good reason). So when Gerry Conway decided to kill Gwen, Stan was all for it, and things shook out in a way MJ wound up being the logical candidate for Peter’s main love interest because of their experiences together and mutual character development.

It didn’t help that, even at her height of relevance, readers always liked MJ more than Gwen because Gwen was, as noted, boring and bland when she wasn’t a vapid jerkass whereas MJ’s “flaw” was being a fun-loving, upbeat, and sexually liberated party girl who didn’t take Peter’s bullshit lying down — remember, this comic premiered amidst the Sexual Revolution and Free Love Movements, where sex positivity began to really find its footing in America. There was certainly an attempt to make this out like MJ was a shallow and selfish person who didn’t care about anything but herself and Peter resultantly found her wanting as a romantic partner, but that failed and MJ came off as a likable, cool, nice, and multifaceted person who anybody would kill to date, while Gwen was the one who came off like a cardboard cutout who’s relationship with Peter was toxic and constantly teetering on failure.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#31767: Nov 4th 2023 at 5:59:01 PM

Stan's intent was that Gwen was an equal while MJ was an unattainable ideal IIRC.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31768: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:13:55 PM

Yeah, but he botched it.

And it's telling that while Flash and Harry have both died and come back (Flash has died a few times, hasn't he) Gwen hasn't come back much. Her first time was Clone Conspiracy.

Hell, Conway didn't even think letting her in on Peter's secret was worth it.

And now, Gwen has been completely outshone by her own alternate universe counterpart (and most of her adaptations as well).

Stan failed hard with Gwen, and Conway was right that she's more relevant in death than in she ever was in life.

One Strip! One Strip!
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31769: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:21:27 PM

Yeah. Its pretty damning that for all that Spider-Editorial and some future creators like Alex Ross tend to hype up Gwen as Peter’s perfect and pure “one true love”, they’ve never been willing to actually bring her back from the dead, for real and permanently anyways.

[up]Yes, Flash has died. Once that I recall definitely, at the end of Go Down Swinging when Goblin murdered him. He was brought back remarkably fast.

Edited by immortaleditor on Nov 4th 2023 at 6:22:19 AM

Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#31770: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:22:14 PM

I think Flash has only died once? And he's considered undead by the rules of his method of "resurrection" right now?

Edited by Spirit on Nov 4th 2023 at 9:22:50 AM

#IceBearForPresident
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#31771: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:23:26 PM

Granted, Peter is married to Gwen in the House of M reality, where everyone's wildest dreams and deepest desires came true...

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#31772: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:25:39 PM

I don't have any issue that Peter can be in true love with both.

Then again, I also support Peter/Felicia.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31773: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:29:06 PM

I also suspect that Gwen hasn't come back because, with how hell bent the writers are on keeping Peter young and unmarried, even they know that Gwen would just be another attempt to get between Peter and MJ.

The irony is, if she had lived, they'd have had the perfect way to keep Peter in that status quo as he tried to choose between them.

One Strip! One Strip!
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#31774: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:31:05 PM

[up][up][up] Mixing up his guilt complex with his desires, really. It'd be interesting to see Peter admitting that he and Gwen probably wouldn't have worked out, honestly. But not exactly the kind of maturity that could be expected of him at this point.

Edited by Blueace on Nov 4th 2023 at 10:31:43 AM

Wake me up at your own risk.
knightstorm Since: Feb, 2022
#31775: Nov 4th 2023 at 6:39:08 PM

Honestly...I'd like an alternate timeline where Gwen lived,,,and kept her original personality and showed how awful it would"ve been for her and Peter to be together. The saint Gwen stuff is sooooooo annoying.


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