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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31626: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:24:22 PM

[up][up]Yeah, that’s another instance of the whole “Spider-Man and only Spider-Man isn’t allowed to age”. The rest of the Marvel Universe was totally unaffected by the massive retcon of OMD, making it seem like Spidey and his cast really are stuck in a pocket universe disjointed from the rest of the setting, if not for the very occasional editorially mandated acknowledgments of what’s happening in the main Spidey book by others. All the stuff that Spidey was involved with after getting married has to have happened the exact way it happened before because it’s canon for everyone else, but the Spidey books insist that now they happened in a totally different way or didn’t happen at all because a huge part of Peter’s life has been altered and everything around him with it.

Its disturbingly reminiscent of how Legion of Superheroes was destroyed as a franchise by becoming a mess of pocket universes and Time Trapper schemes after Crisis, with them not being willing to let go of Superboy and do a full reboot like the rest of DC was doing and instead creating arbitrary, cascading retcons and continuity resets to try and have their cake and eat it too.

[up]That’s the even crazier part. So many adaptations — recent and not — have established the popular image of Spidey as a grown man who is, at the very least, dating MJ and maybe even has kids. The whole “he’s a teenager in high school” has never been really been treated as the “definitive take” by anyone other than Editorial. The vast majority of adaptations have Peter as an adult and with MJ.

Edited by immortaleditor on Nov 1st 2023 at 8:28:06 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#31627: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:26:12 PM

I think a big factor here is that Spider-Man is essentially the mascot for Marvel Comics, so there's added pressure to maintain what's seen as their most iconic form, as any changes could be seen as changes to the branding of the whole company.

knightstorm Since: Feb, 2022
#31628: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:32:21 PM

[up]Though that also brings into question of what constitutes iconic. Peter and MJ were married for 20 years...and to the general public due to the far more influential games and movies...Peter and MJ are the equivalent of Lois and Superman. The brand itself no longer seems to support the version ASM is trying to push for.

[up][up] It's honestly just gotten sad. The desperation to push for a version of Spider-Man that most people don't even seem to want. No other Spider-Man media uses anything similar to current ASM...so it seems even in the company as a whole...OMD Spider-Man is viewed as inferior.

Edited by knightstorm on Nov 1st 2023 at 8:34:47 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#31629: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:38:26 PM

Yes, Peter and MJ as a pairing are very well known ... as a Will They or Won't They? thing.

knightstorm Since: Feb, 2022
#31630: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:44:04 PM

Actually...they're well known as a couple. The Spiderverse movies and Insomniac games have them in a stable relationship. ASM is completely off brand by comparison...and as it has far less influence in the general publics perception of the characters...it's largely irrelevant nowadays. The current editorial aren't just fighting a losing battle...it's a war they lost long ago.

Edited by knightstorm on Nov 1st 2023 at 8:44:56 AM

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#31631: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:59:44 PM

They've walked back hard on OMD even changing anything at this point. Spencer's clone Harry reveal means that the big result of the Mephisto deal didn't even happen. It might seem weird to think about now, but Harry coming back to life wa supposed to be the big shakeup at the time.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31632: Nov 1st 2023 at 9:01:50 PM

Was Harry coming back even part of Mephisto's deal in OMD?

The official explanation was that Norman had Mysterio fake his son's death.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31633: Nov 1st 2023 at 9:02:53 PM

[up][up][up]Spider-Editorial lost any hope of winning that war the very instant that the MCU had its own version of MJ become Peter’s sole and undisputed Love Interest. Probably even sooner when the Raimi films had Pete and MJ as the official OTP or the various cartoons did so. The string of Insomniac Games, Spider-Verse movies, acclaimed elseworlds like Renew Your Vows and Life Story that frequently get cited as “entry level comics”, and stuff accompanying it all just hit the nails harder into that coffin.

The only reason they probably still get away with it is nobody higher up caring enough to really crackdown because they’re behavior hasn’t gotten QUITE obnoxious and blatant enough to prompt anyone higher on the food chain to step in and force a regime change like happened to Dan DiDio and Ike Perlmutter.

[up]While the intent at the time seems to have been the whole Norman faked Harry’s death thing (or, more insultingly, trying to imply that Peter and MJ being married got Harry killed as “proof” that things were better without the marriage), that was stupid and Nick Spencer’s run established that BND Harry was just a clone and said clone’s creation was indeed a part of Mephisto’s wider scheme to try and prevent Peter and MJ from being together and ruining their lives to prevent the birth of Mayday, who may or may not be destined to kill Mephisto.

Looking back, I’ll always laugh that the only way Spencer could make OMD make sense was declaring it was all literally just an attempt to ruin Spider-Man forever by some asshole.

Edited by immortaleditor on Nov 1st 2023 at 9:08:38 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#31634: Nov 1st 2023 at 9:16:54 PM

I mean, they did two full reboots of the Legion.

And they were never popular because the original Legion's fans wanted nothing to do with them.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#31635: Nov 1st 2023 at 9:17:00 PM

[up][up][up]I always assumed it was Mephisto in the same way he made some thug sit on Peter so he missed his wedding.

Like, not directly his fault, but thanks to his meddling, the timeline changed.

Edited by Joshbones on Nov 1st 2023 at 9:17:19 AM

Antiyonder (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31636: Nov 1st 2023 at 9:23:14 PM

1. The Clone Saga despite dragging arguably did get better when Peter and Ben were brothers and the Pete bashing from Marvel ceased (Making him as unhinged as possible).

That said while it would be iffy to still have MJ rejecting Peter for being a clone, but if there was ever a time to separate them, it would have been their daughter's end. It's my take that would be the last legit means to undo everything then as grim as it would be and that passing on that should have been the sign that yeah that sunken ship sailed.

2. As for it not qualifying as iconic? Well Mr. Freeze being a more tragically layered villain was even later and outside comics first when originally he was even less than Captain Cold with his Rogues Family membership.

But that is still seen as worthwhile.

Or as some fans brought up, Alfred. Guy originally entered Bruce's employee after he became Batman and had to work out the secret. Also a bit more comedic.

Being a confidant from day one, plus serving the family as far back as Thomas and Martha Wayne only entered canon following Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Or while it happened earlier for X-Men, Magneto also being more sympathetic, plus not labeling his group in adaptations as Evil (Pryde aside I think).

Heck, the 90s animated series when you really look at it, only a few present cases of villainy with mostly being a reluctant ally.

Take Sanctuary. While drastic, his objective in the episode wasn't evil illegal or wrong. Mutants could join him off Earth or stay if they wished. And when some human astronauts are attacked due to Cortez overstepping boundaries, he gives them shelter to recover and leave safely. Well regarded even if he was mostly a villain for a longer period of time up to that point.

3.

Its disturbingly reminiscent of how Legion of Superheroes was destroyed as a franchise by becoming a mess of pocket universes and Time Trapper schemes after Crisis, with them not being willing to let go of Superboy and do a full reboot like the rest of DC was doing and instead creating arbitrary, cascading retcons and continuity resets to try and have their cake and eat it too.

Yeah they should have just rebooted them from the start, but you could avoid further confusion if the Pocket Universe was off-limits (via hard to travel between) and not used in Superman or at least not impacting his story.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#31637: Nov 1st 2023 at 9:24:58 PM

I mean the reboots were generally utter failures.

It worked for Superman but they eventually reintroduced everything.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 1st 2023 at 9:25:19 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#31638: Nov 1st 2023 at 9:34:30 PM

Spencer was very clearly trying to correct as much of the damage editorial made as he was feasibly allowed to, retconning away Sins Past was honestly more than I genuinely expected him to get away with. It's a valiant effort to be sure... and then of course Zeb came around to fuck it all up.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
Mega_zxa Since: Mar, 2015
#31639: Nov 1st 2023 at 10:19:43 PM

So I was thinking about how Marvel will never let May die.

If they won't let May grow old and move on to the great beyond to be with Ben, why don't they de-age her. Turn her into a kid have Peter and Mary Jane have to take care of her. I mean it wouldn't be the weirdest thing to happen to Peter.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31640: Nov 1st 2023 at 10:38:08 PM

What's sad is before this Zeb was a fine enough regarded writer. Hell he wrote Hellions which is considered one of the best books of the Krakoa Era.

But now his rep is pretty much wrecked with this Spider-Man run.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#31641: Nov 2nd 2023 at 12:53:50 AM

I grew up reading classic comics and watching the 90's show, and I remember playing the PS 1 Spider-Man game and being a little confused as to how MJ knew Peter's real name in the Venom scenario ("Peter Parker! Just get me out of here now!"). But it was all cleared up for me in the character profiles section where MJ was said to be married to him.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31642: Nov 2nd 2023 at 4:03:44 AM

May was explicitly called sixty in the early issues of the comic, so her looking incredibly old was supposed to be an artistic choice.

Not quite - May, during a doctor's physical, says she feels like "a spry young sixty year old" implying she's quite a bit older than that.

edit: also i want to dispute ASM 400 being the only good use of Aunt May in 616. It is nice as an ending for her, but sort of undercut by the fact that it is just her final moments

A better use of her was JMS' run, with Aunt May learning Peter's identity and becoming his conversation. "The Conversation" in particular is a really good and heartfelt issue, such that Bendis pretty much ripped off for "The Talk" in Ultimate Spider-man.

Edited by Saiga on Nov 2nd 2023 at 6:32:26 AM

immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31643: Nov 2nd 2023 at 7:50:56 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, it’s sad that Zeb’s had his reputation destroyed by this run. Dude showed a fair bit of promise in years prior. Hellions, as you mentioned, was one of the best books in the Krakoa Era of X-Men, an era that’s already quite good itself. He also had a pretty damn good run on New Mutants. He can write good comics when given the right tools…

But then again, he also has written a lot of stuff like Venom: Dark Origin before this, so his work has always been kinda hit and miss.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31644: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:27:53 AM

Wasn't he the guy who also wrote Shed? Where Lizard graphically eats his own son?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#31645: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:39:20 AM

Thinking of hit-and-miss, what's the view on the current Venom and Carnage runs, and the whole Summer of Symbiotes thing?

I've enjoyed Ewing's Venom, but imo it's never hit the same heights as his Immortal Hulk or X-Men Red work, possibly because of the split teams and parallel protagonists.

I've also enjoyed bits of Ram V's Carnage, and Paknadel's stuff has been pretty good, but didn't entirely buy into the whole "Carnage ascends to godhood" arc.

...and I've pretty much skipped the two big crossovers. Did I miss much?

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 2nd 2023 at 3:39:37 PM

TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#31646: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:41:00 AM

[up][up] Yep. Ah, Shed. Good times.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#31647: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:47:13 AM

Sometimes a writer being good on one book doesn't transfer to another book.

For spider example, Spencer is a decent spider-writer when he's not getting up his own butt with arc plot. But his Captain America run, charitably speaking, is not well regarded.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31648: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:53:36 AM

Ewing’s Venom is… eh. I hate time travel stuff with a passion so I’m biased against it, but ignoring that it’s got a lot of really cool ideas, but is hobbled by the fact that Ewing isn’t the sole writer; the Dylan issues aren’t bad but they’re REALLY slow and aimless and seem to do nothing but interrupt the much more interesting Eddie issues. But beyond that, it’s okay. Its a very inaccessible run that pretty much requires you to be fully aware of the characters’ entire histories to work, so definitely not for beginners; that’s not a negative or positive in my view, but it’s something to be aware of.

I would also say it suffers from what the Venom book has suffered from ever since Donny Cates’ run, which is that they’re using Eddie for stories that would probably work much better for Flash for the sake of synergy.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31649: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:58:01 AM

[up][up][up] Yeah that's the storyline that killed Spider-Man for me for a long time.

Didn't help Spectacular got cancelled not too long ago.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#31650: Nov 2nd 2023 at 9:12:37 AM

The Shed came out around the time of the New 52, and the double whammy of “Curt Connors kills his only remaining family, who is a a child, and tosses half his character concept to become a tortured man trapped in the Lizard’s body” and “Mr. Freeze never knew Nora, she’s just a random frozen patient he fabricated a relationship with because he’s violently insane” that caused me to throw up my hands, go “crap, it’s happening everywhere” and leave superhero comics in general for a few years.

There was a real theme of “let’s reinterpret everything to be as shockingly depraved as possible” going though comics at that time that didn’t age well at all.


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