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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31176: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:09:14 AM

I guess I'm Norman's strongest supporter on this thread. [lol]

None of you can convince me that bringing back Norman back in the clone saga was a mistake.

And besides, I just pretend What If Mayday lived happens next. With some bits from the JMS run since that's where I started Spider-Man.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 24th 2023 at 12:12:10 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#31177: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:19:18 AM

Personally, I don't think any of the non-clone spiders are in Peter's Spider-Family.

Like, he's good friends with them, except for Jessica. But they don't go beyond being good work friends. I've commented before that despite being ostensibly Miles' mentor, Peter barely ments him.

Sometimes, other superheroes are close enough to Peter to be in his Spider-Family but its sometimes Wolverine (who was close friends with his dead, deceased parents) and even less sometimes Iron Man (who has a lot of money and will sometimes give it to Peter). Johnny Storm is in there, although it doesn't come up as often as you'd think. But they have a lot of history together. Black Cat should be in the Spider Family but as the cool one who never rvsps but sometimes shows up anyway.

Edited by Bocaj on Oct 23rd 2023 at 12:20:21 PM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31178: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:21:22 AM

[up][up] Lol. Despite what I said, though, I wouldn’t say I really hate Norman as a character. I just feel the character has been dragged out past his expiration date in 616 and stripped of his character and made into a poor man’s Joker. He was a genuinely great villain in the Lee-Ditko-Romita era and Gerry Conway gave him a perfect ending with “The Night Gwen Stacy Died”.

Its attempts to bring him back and shill him as Peter’s one and only archenemy and bestest, most important villain despite the fact that he’s only got, like, two significant victories to his name — neither of which are particularly impressive when you get down to it — that annoy me, particularly when there are other villains who are much more deserving of being Spidey’s archenemy. That’s also why this beef applies solely to 616 Norman; other versions like the Spectacular Spider-Man or Ultimate versions actually work to EARN the title of archenemy rather than getting propped up by an editorial team that’s still traumatized over Gwen Stacy dying forty something years ago.

As that last sentence implies, I also feel he’s become a relic of an older time and symbol of the arrested development that editorial keeps the series trapped in.

[up]That’s fair. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Edited by immortaleditor on Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:23:20 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31179: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:21:43 AM

[up][up]Marvel editorial doesn't want Peter to mentor Miles otherwise it makes Peter feel old.

Because MILES is a walking reminder that there already is a young unmarried Spider-Man.

But since he's not really Peter, he doesn't count to Marvel Editorial apparently.

[up] Yeah don't worry about it, it's cool.

I just enjoy Norman Oborn as a villain and post resurrection he's had some great stories fighting Spider-Man in my opinion.

Sometimes I feel like a crazy person when so many people tell me that reviving Norman was a mistake and he's had no good stories. [lol]

But if you don't like Norman post resurrection, it's all good, we're entitled to our opinions.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 24th 2023 at 12:23:48 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#31180: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:24:11 AM

Needing Peter to feel young makes Peter and Miles' relationship weird in the 616.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31181: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:26:59 AM

Miles demonstrates that Marvel editorial just really wants more girls for Peter to date.

Remember when Spider-Man became a shitty harem anime in BND, there were all these girls for Peter to date whose names I forget.

There was even a part where Peter makes out with a random red head.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 24th 2023 at 12:27:09 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#31182: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:28:17 AM

Peter can't even juggle one relationship. And editorial thinks he can be a swinger? Lol. Roflmao.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31183: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:28:19 AM

[up]Tell me about it. I’ve observed before how weird it is that Peter’s supposed to be this mentor figure to Miles and yet Miles is written as infinitely more mature, successful, and well-adjusted than him, not to mention they seem to barely interact anymore in the comics which is even weirder.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31184: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:31:57 AM

I've been playing the new Insomniac game, and it really hits me how great Peter and Miles are as a duo. They got such solid chemistry and fun banter with each other.

I won't get into anymore but I think a lot of it works because Peter has more adult concerns like keeping his house from being taken away because of his bills and relationship problems with MJ that feel real but not just for the sake of drama.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31185: Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:34:28 AM

[up]I’ve had that same thought. Peter and Miles’ dynamic ONLY works if Peter is allowed to be older and more mature. You can’t have him stuck as a perpetual Manchild and be Miles’ mentor at the same time, nor can you have Peter and Miles be too close in age; there needs to be like about a decade at least of age and experience between them.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#31186: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:25:57 AM

None of you can convince me that bringing back Norman back in the clone saga was a mistake.

Norman is weird because I don't hate "classic" Norman or most of his spin off versions.

I think if I were to have to name the issue I have with him, it's the Zeb-ification of Norman. Basically, that Norman Osborn's return requires us to torture Peter and his family as well as deny them any form of justice or ability to retaliate against him.

When Norman Osborn killed Gwen Stacy, that meant Norman had to die. It was his Moral Event Horizon and that was when he was done as a character and his continued survival just made no sense in the book.

Return Norman killing Peter's baby, instituting HAMMER, and other horrific evils left and right plus giving him Joker Immunity just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

It's also the fact Norman has lost his essential "hook."

Norman = Bad but not Evil person.

Goblin = Evil person.

Norman post-resurrection is treated as "Evil Person" and Goblin as "Serial Killer." When I feel that the Jekyll and Hyde thing is the biggest appeal of him. See the Raimi movies and No Way Home.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:38:33 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31187: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:31:57 AM

Think you mean No Way Home.

Personally, I prefer the more subdued version where Norman is a terrible person and corrupt businessman, and the Goblin is merely an outlet for him to do things he can't get away with unmasked and REALLY enjoys the freedom anonymity gives him.

If I ever could write a Spider Man and Goblin story, I'd really love to tackle the separation of the person and the mask, and how Peter and Norman handle balancing their personal lives with costumed work.

But I think we can all agree the Wells version of Norman is just bad. They don't really do much character stuff there. Also making him a Karma Houdini is bad.

And this is coming from a person who enjoys Gold Goblin. Presumably because the writing is actually good and Wells isn't writing it.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 24th 2023 at 1:32:22 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31188: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:35:22 AM

[up][up]Exactly, you get it. That’s another big thing I dislike about 616 Norman ever since he came back. The constant Karma Houdini where he basically just does whatever horrifying thing he wants, always escapes punishment, and yet doesn’t even have the decency to WIN while doing it makes him more insufferable than he should be in a way that’s not often fun to read. Yeah, you could argue that’s a problem that exists with some other supervillains in Marvel and DC, but it’s never a good thing to happen.

[up]I’m honestly good with Norman either way when it comes to the “bad guy who becomes worse as Goblin”/“normal guy with an evil alter” divide. Both work depending on the story and I don’t think either has a strength over the other.

Edited by immortaleditor on Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:37:40 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#31189: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:40:02 AM

I think part of my issue is that I have no problem with corrupt corporate executives. I love the Kingpin as mentioned. However, I'm curious how we're meant to buy that Norman Osborn is simultaneously a massive corporate big shot as well as a deranged serial killer.

I find that hard to believe even in Marvel.

One of my favorite issues was THE PULSE where Norman gets harrassed by Luke and jessica enough that he dons the Goblin outfit and starts attacking people in public, ruining him forever.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:40:45 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31190: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:40:36 AM

Oddly enough, the whole getting sins removed and forced to feel guilt for the various crimes in his life, is the worst possible fate Norman could suffer.

He's a guy all about personal power and exerting your will over others. Pure toxic masculinity and capitalism as a person. So being forced to feel guilt and remorse to the point that he can't tell what's real and what are hallucinations is a pretty terrible thing to inflict on Norman.

And he totally deserves it. The narration for Gold Goblin is oddly compelling for a series that stars Norman.

There's a lot of untapped existential horror in Norman's stories that have really interested me. Such as the whole Amnesiac Dissonance he had in the Romita-Lee era, or struggling with the Goblin side of his brain post magic the gathering game.

[up] Didn't his stint as a serial killer get him caught and arrested in the Pulse though? Killing a Bugle reporter puts too much heat on him and he's exposed and arrested.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 24th 2023 at 1:42:01 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#31191: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:42:17 AM

I mean, the "Sins removed" thing kind of is like the Mary Jane/Peter marriage ending. If they divroced, it'd be tragic but Peter could do it because, "Oh, it's not you it's my enemies." But the deal with Satan just makes it so there's no actual character building from the act.

Norman Osborn being cured of Goblin insanity? Say someone gave him the magic healing juice? Suddenly feeling horrible?

That's interesting.

But he's just Brainwashed and Crazy now.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31192: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:44:13 AM

Yeah, they can't keep what exactly the sins are consistent.

Heck, when Spider-Man has it, it's implied that the sins are literally the Green Goblin persona ripped from Norman. Like he's giving out orders to Peter and shit.

Still, I think there's SOME interesting character stuff done with Gold Goblin even if the premise is utterly ridiculous.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 24th 2023 at 1:44:57 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31193: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:45:29 AM

I think the worst execution of Peter and Miles dynamic is the Marvel’s Spider-Man cartoon from 2017.

Due to a combination of now Peter and Miles both being teenagers, the excessive all-consuming focus on making everyone scientists, and the addition of Gwen and Anya as Spiders, Miles is left with no personality.

He becomes just the token black guy in that show, which the worst thing that can happen to Miles.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31194: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:46:54 AM

They really have no idea what to do with the whole “Norman’s sins” plot thread. Even in Nick Spencer’s run, it’s clear that either he himself didn’t understand how it was supposed to work or had an entirely different plan that editorial made him throw out in favor of whatever they’re doing now. The way the sins work is just bizarre and inconsistent across issues let alone arcs and it’s above all else just a cheap plot device to make this Good Guy Norman status quo possible.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31195: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:47:14 AM

[up][up]The PS 5 game does put a lot of focus on Miles' musical side. And it's VERY handy in a late game bit.

It's funny because the 2017 cartoon Miles VA is the same guy who plays him in the playstation series.

Dude really lucked out with that chance to play Miles with compelling character.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 24th 2023 at 1:47:32 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#31196: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:47:27 AM

Verb the Spider-Verse also seems to be leaning towards making Miles a scientist

It’s weird. I thought the first movie was leaning toward his artisticness being his unique thing

Edit: Does comic Miles have a thing he leans towards? Like, with Peter it always seemed like science was the career he should have if he could hold down a job or not drop out of college

Edited by Bocaj on Oct 23rd 2023 at 1:48:58 PM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31197: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:49:02 AM

I feel like the whole science nerd is a bit too overplayed. If every spider is a genius then it kinda diluted their characters.

Give me a spider who is a total dumbass and can’t casually spout quantum physics.

[up] In Spider-Verse’s case Miles wanting to be a particle physicist is clearly an excuse so he can invent a dimensional portal to find the other spiders. Which becomes a pointless dream when Gwen showed up and revealed they got the bracelets.

Presumably has to find a new dream.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:50:25 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#31198: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:50:14 AM

Now there's a relatable Spider-person.[lol]

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
immortaleditor Since: Aug, 2023
#31199: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:50:36 AM

That is a weird thing, I’ve noticed. I don’t get the recent obsession with having all the Spiders be scientists or scientist-adjacent, it’s not something that was done before with most of them. Let that be Peter’s niche, as others have noted Miles works better as an artist and the other Spiders should also keep their own gimmicks and hobbies.

[up][up]Kaine’s far from a dumbass, but he’s not a science guy at all. He’s like your badass big brother who was in the army instead of college and came back knowing a hundred ways to kill a man but not how to hold down a non-military job and has little patience for super-science nonsense.

Ben’s never been much of a science guy either, even if he shared a lot of Pete’s memories and intelligence.

Julia’s more into magic as both Spider-Woman and the second Madame Web.

Mattie had more of an Amateur Sleuth thing going on.

Miles USED to be emphasized as an artist and musician.

Mayday was an athletic tomboy who dreamed of being a pro basketball player.

This phenomenon of Spider-People all being geeks and scientists is a pretty new and not particularly welcome one. I don’t like it either.

Edited by immortaleditor on Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:58:24 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#31200: Oct 23rd 2023 at 10:51:29 AM

“So Mr Morales, why do you want to get into physics?”

“Booty call”

“…”

“So do I get to enroll or what?”

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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