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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#30151: Aug 23rd 2023 at 9:13:12 PM

Yeah, I understand Chelsea Cain not being a fan of sexual assault being used as a plot point and shit like that. It did get thrown around a lot at some points, and it was almost always handled in a creepy, exploitative manner.

But her retcon with Mockingbird just didn't work. The series had been a lot of fun up to that point, but then that retcon really made a lot of people uncomfortable.

Of course, the valid criticism was mostly overshadowed by the whiny little piss-babies crying about The Wokeism. Like the panel of Bobbi mentioning all the superheroes when she was young were men, and dudes were like, "Hey! What about these 5 female heroes who existed in the '60s!" And, like, every team was one token woman and 3-5 men, and every solo hero was a guy, which was the point being made, there were definitely waaaaay more men, and they got waaaaaay more attention than the women.

The bigger problem with it is actually that, logically, Bobbi probably already should have been pretty close to starting college by the time the superheroes were showing up. She debuted in 1971 as already a trained SHIELD agent with a Ph.D. She should've been, like, 25 at least by then, and with the sliding timeline, that would've put her in her early 20s when the FF first showed up.

That said, it's not like any character's age makes a damned bit of sense anyway, so whatever.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#30152: Aug 23rd 2023 at 9:36:19 PM

Cain's justification was that it wasn't murder because Phantom Rider was a ghost, but I don't think she realized he was alive at some point. That's a very big step to miss.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#30153: Aug 23rd 2023 at 9:43:13 PM

Right, he wasn't always a literal Phantom.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#30154: Aug 23rd 2023 at 9:49:01 PM

@Charles Phipps I'll give you Disassembled and Hank creating Ultron. I'd say the rest are fairly negligible in comparison.

  • Unfortunate implications aside, Hawkeye and Bobbi's argument regarding the Phantom Rider mess just boils down to a disagreement between a married couple that doesn't have any wider impact beyond the two heroes involved.

  • Superhero fights prior to Civil War were common to a rather annoying degree but Civil War took to a whole new level.

  • I've always maintained that the Illuminati were justified in sending the Hulk into space. He always did want to be left alone.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#30155: Aug 23rd 2023 at 9:54:07 PM

Still could have asked...

Wake me up at your own risk.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30156: Aug 23rd 2023 at 10:01:06 PM

Definitely should have asked.

Like, it was him going berserk because they did it without asking that caused him to end up on Sakaar in the first place. There's a What If? story where the ship actually reaches the planet they intended for him, which might have happened if he'd been in on the plan.

One Strip! One Strip!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#30157: Aug 23rd 2023 at 10:06:57 PM

Back on topic: Have Bucky and Flash ever teamed up? I feel they have quite a bit in common. They're both soldiers, they've both lost limbs, they both use guns in contrast to their setting's primary hero and they're both more known for their nicknames.

Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#30158: Aug 23rd 2023 at 10:33:13 PM

So Eddie Brock is now wearing Bedlam, his alternate future self. And he's made of symbiote matter right now.

Neat.

#IceBearForPresident
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#30159: Aug 23rd 2023 at 10:36:09 PM

[up]x2 Maybe during Flash's time on Secret Avengers as Agent Venom? Otherwise no I don't think they've interacted on the page.

Edited by Aleistar on Aug 23rd 2023 at 1:36:21 PM

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#30160: Aug 24th 2023 at 2:52:58 AM

@Causative Dust See this holds ground if Jason hasn't shown repeatedly to kill the Joker whenever given the chance.

From the death in family where he showed he truly meant he'd kill the clown if Bruce died instead of him.

Killing the Clown!Joker in three Jokers.

Even as of late sniping who he thought was Joker (it was clayface) from afar before letting the police arrest him.

Heck Jason after the gun decided to blow everyone up and Bruce still decided to save the clown. So proving Jason's point Batman would still save the Joker no matter what.

Which goes back to Spidey if he's so hung up about himself not killing, thats fine. But don't jump infront of the bullet when JJ is going to end Norman.

Norman who again killed his lover, unborn child and just recently best friend among numerous other innocents in NYC just a few seconds ago.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#30161: Aug 24th 2023 at 10:50:05 AM

So someone suggested that Wells and Lowe might up their trolling game by having MJ get back with Peter as he’s transformed by Norman’s sins.

…..I wouldn’t be surprised TBH.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#30162: Aug 24th 2023 at 10:57:16 AM

Personality wipes, magical morality, Heel–Face Brainwashing and all that are pretty standard in speculative fiction, though.

"Does this person who is no longer evil deserve a second chance?" is a recurring question.

JMS made it the core of one Babylon 5 episode. Marvel have already played with it for Sabretooth (after Axis) and Loki (after Siege). One stuck, one didn't.

Edit: And Nebula. And Sebastian Shaw. And...

I'm not optimistic that it'll work out well for Norman - for narrative reasons - but it's in keeping with the wider MCU synergy, and it's not an intrinsically bad plotline.

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 24th 2023 at 6:59:00 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#30163: Aug 24th 2023 at 10:59:11 AM

For my personal take, after reading Gold Goblin, I don’t see Norman suffering a death of personality, rather he’s still the same man forced to feel guilt for the first time in his life.

It’s oddly compelling reading. Then again everything looks compelling compared to the main stuff.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#30164: Aug 24th 2023 at 11:01:03 AM

[up] Which was more or less the way they handled the morality changes for Axis, iirc?

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 24th 2023 at 7:01:15 PM

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#30165: Aug 24th 2023 at 11:22:55 AM

Even the Axis plot line had a copout of "how will the Avengers and Co ever regain the trust of the public"

The reformed-villains took the blame.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#30166: Aug 24th 2023 at 11:30:20 AM

Axis Hobgoblin was cool, he had a good shirt.

And Carnage was a fun example of how flipping the morality and NOTHING ELSE would play out with someone like him.

The rest, eh.

I thought Axis was mostly negatively received at the time. Has it had a critical reinterpretation?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#30167: Aug 24th 2023 at 11:31:55 AM

Dunno, I only stuck around for Axis Hobgoblin and Carnage.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#30168: Aug 24th 2023 at 11:35:01 AM

The (Al Ewing) Loki tie-in and post-event Sabretooth stuff got a good reception. I'm not so sure about the main event. But I was mostly just making the point that this isn't exactly new ground.

Sometimes it works out (Gillen's Loki probably being the strongest example), sometimes it reverts the character after a bunch of good stories. Sometimes it just sucks. But it's not an automatically bad plot.

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 24th 2023 at 7:35:34 PM

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#30169: Aug 24th 2023 at 2:25:31 PM

This whole Peter turns evil storyline is just telling me that they've run out of ideas with him

Which is ironic as Marvel is insisent Peter staying married and having a kid is the end of his story.

I've always called bullshit on that as Goku, one of the most famous characters in fiction, is more remembered for his adventures when he was a father, then as a kid.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#30170: Aug 24th 2023 at 2:30:32 PM

[[quote block]] Hank Pym creating Ultron [[/quoteblock]]

Tbf I dunno about blaming Pym for that. As Ultron is evil by his own choice and just likes hurting people which pym didn't program him to do

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#30171: Aug 24th 2023 at 2:30:36 PM

Toriyama had to fight for that one. His editors were begging him to keep Goku a fun adventure child forever

Goes to show.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
knightstorm Since: Feb, 2022
#30172: Aug 24th 2023 at 4:50:37 PM

They hit a wall years ago on new ideas. Even the current maligned run is basically BND's "greatest" hits dialed up to 11. OMD was all about rolling back the clock to the 70's status quo...so it's debatable if the intention was to ever actually do anything truly "new" with the character.

Antiyonder (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#30173: Aug 24th 2023 at 5:37:00 PM

Which is ironic as Marvel is insisent Peter staying married and having a kid is the end of his story.

I've always called bullshit on that as Goku, one of the most famous characters in fiction, is more remembered for his adventures when he was a father, then as a kid.

Yeah and it's telling that no effort was made to dole out the good stories that required the separation. Even without the marriage, MJ for example shouldn't have been taken in by Superior Peter.

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#30174: Aug 24th 2023 at 6:09:09 PM

[up][up] They've clearly been spinning their wheels trying and failing to recapture the 70s "magic". Problem is you can never do that as things have to change. Or else you'll just get diminishing returns.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#30175: Aug 24th 2023 at 6:58:55 PM

[up] A big issue with trying to go back to a classic feel is . . . things changed during those classic days. It's actually part of what made those days so popular, was they were trying to be fresh and new, building on existing continuity to keep things moving forward.

That's actually a big part of what made the Waid/Samnee Daredevil run work. Yes, it was a back to basics approach that was clearly trying to capture the feel of classic Daredevil. But it succeeded by also trying to keep things fresh and new. And, it successfully captured a lot of the tone of the classic Daredevil.

Which is another thing: If you want to do a back to basics approach, that means capturing the tone of the classic comics, more than anything else. In the case of Spider-Man, that means finding the balance of wins and losses. Because back then, he had as many wins as losses, as both Spider-Man and Peter. The standard formula was that if things were going well as Spider-Man, they'd go poorly for Peter, and vice versa. But once in a while, he'd get a brief period where things were going well for both. It never lasted long, because drama, but still. Especially once you got to the Lee/Romita era, there was a real balance between the ups and downs.

From what I've been hearing, Wells' run has just had too many downs for both Peter and Spider-Man. I've seen complaints that Spider-Man hasn't successfully defeated a single villain on his own this entire run, always needing help. Like, even Shocker was defeated by Black Cat disabling his gauntlets? Spider-Man isn't allowed a clean win against the frigging Shocker, of all villains? And this is while his life as Peter is also in the shitter.

So, yeah, I think too many people kinda misunderstand what the whole point of a "return to the classics" actually is.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

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