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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29526: Aug 7th 2023 at 7:58:50 AM

Compared to Last Hunt it's barely mentioned and when I read it all I thought was.

This would work better if this was written as a flashback before Norman killed Gwen, Ben Reiley and the unborn Mayday.

It's like Black Manta trying to turn Aquaman evil after killing his son.

Your villain has already crossed the point of no return. Trying to tempt the hero now is nonsensical.

The Raimi movie new this and kept Norman trying to recruit Peter before he went after his family.

Edited by FKJ10 on Aug 7th 2023 at 8:00:03 AM

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#29527: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:03:12 AM

surprisedI was fine with Norman branching out and becoming other people's problem for the exact reason mentioned here, I feel they were spinning their wheels with the character since revenge of the Green Goblin. Make him an Avengers villain, go nuts.

It's also why I'm not that hard on Gold Goblin, it feels like the first new idea they had for the character in ages. Even if the evil destroying shotgun is lame.

Edited by Joshbones on Aug 7th 2023 at 8:03:26 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29528: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:06:34 AM

Yeah you can't call it tired if it's literally the first time Norman tried making Peter his heir.

Call it boring if you want, but it's not tired at all when that story came out, it's one of my favorite Goblin stories and as noted, it's had a long lasting effect on how people perceive the Goblin and Spider dynamic. Just because you don't personally see it as mentioned as much as Last Hunt doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact.

I've seen it been talked about a lot in the circles I run in, more than Last Hunt honestly.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 11:08:10 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29529: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:08:26 AM

I just can't help but find the irony Ben Reily is made into a villain and tortured twice.

The man behind all his suffering gets his sins erased everyone, just forgets his multiple death penalty worthy crimes and now he's a hero. With the avengers just letting him go about his day.

Yeah Frank Castle has a point, the marvel heroes are jokes and their moral priorities are beyond dumb.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#29530: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:09:43 AM

Who cares what Frank Castle thinks. He's in space

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29531: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:11:04 AM

Meanwhile Iconic Good Guy Character Norman Osborn is currently running away from his sins and letting Kafka suffer them.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#29532: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:12:47 AM

What really baffles me is when Otto tried to inject goblin serum into Norman to prove he's still a bad guy but Norman laughs that his blood is like half goblin serum now so an additional injection of enough to goblinize an elephant won't affect him.

Is there no threshold of overdose on that stuff?

Was there more to the scans that I didn't see where Norman's liver suddenly explodes?

Edited by Bocaj on Aug 7th 2023 at 11:13:11 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29533: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:15:20 AM

I mean, it's not like the writers actually remembered what the Goblin formula actually does. Like Dan Slott thought it was a literal Goblin formula that mutates you into a monster for some reason.

All it does is make you stronger and smarter with a dash of a healing factor. Norman wasn't evil because of the formula, it's because he's a greedy corrupt businessman. It didn't even drive him insane like so many modern stories and adaptations would have you believe.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 11:16:48 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#29534: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:20:21 AM

It depends on the batch, right? That's why Harry and Phil got so messed up.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29535: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:22:25 AM

I may need to double check on that, but the actual reason Norman Osborn is insane is because he botched his magic the gathering ritual but most writers ignore that dumb shit written by John Byrne and just pretend the formula made him insane.

When he was a relatively sane if cruel guy back in the Lee-Ditko run.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29536: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:26:26 AM

The Goblin formula flip flops between causes insanity or not.

Lee and Ditko leaned into causes insanity as Norman lost his Goblin persona with his memories.

The Hobgoblin made sure to keep out the insanity when he replicated the Goblin serum.

So Raimi, Webb and Spectacular just went full forth with Goblin formula makes you crazy. With Spectacular being the most nuanced take it in small constrolled doses and you keep your sanity.

Norman their was just a cunt through and through.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#29537: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:26:45 AM

Even before the magic ritual thing, he had those frequent bouts of amnesia in the silver age. The 90s cartoon and Raimi Spiders-Men treated the goblin like an evil split personality. Dunno if that came from the comics. And stuff around Siege also had Norman insane.

[up] [nja]

Edited by Bocaj on Aug 7th 2023 at 11:26:58 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29538: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:29:01 AM

I mean, Norman having a split personality was less because he was crazy and the formula, and more Spider-Man giving him brain damage and amnesia after the fight.

Which Norman felt compelled to pay back with the Clone Saga.

The Lee-Ditko run indicated that Norman was sane with the formula and he was evil because he was already a corrupt businessman who gained power. Losing his memories and turning good supports the idea that the formula didn't drive him mad.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 11:31:38 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29539: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:29:44 AM

Norman's powers being occult based goes all the way back to the 60s cartoon where he was entirely mystical.

Even Lee first envisioned the Goblin as a mystical creature.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29540: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:31:05 AM

It's kind of funny. At first, Green Goblin seems like a perfectly sane, but immoral businessman turned criminal mastermind. When he's revealed as Norman Osborn, he does show some mental instability, particularly when Harry is mentioned, and flashbacks show him becoming colder after taking the formula (but that might not be the formula, but more so the shift in Norman's personality after committing to being a supervillain). Then he gets amnesia, and he becomes a pretty stand up guy - possibly more so than he ever was!

It might not be that he was a good person that the goblin formula turned bad, but the amnesiac Norman Osborn sure makes it seem that way. It's kind of funny if it had just made him a better person than pre-formula Norman, though.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29541: Aug 7th 2023 at 8:32:09 AM

[up][up] Yeah but the cartoon is a totally different canon, and Ditko overruled Lee's idea of making him a mystical monster.

[up] Do you remember when Norman Osborn SAVED Gwen Stacy from the Kingpin? Yeah, that aged badly.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 11:32:44 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#29542: Aug 7th 2023 at 9:17:45 AM

[up] I posted about that a while ago with 'This is awkward now...' XD

The Protomen enhanced my life.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29543: Aug 7th 2023 at 9:22:04 AM

On another note, it is pretty funny how all the characters only know Kingpin as the Kingpin as if he's never had a public identity.

Like if this was done today, there would be a bit about how Fisk's lawyers somehow exonerated him from trying to kill Captain Stacy and his daughter despite testimony from the Stacy family that noted businessman Wilson Fisk tried to kill them.

Yeah, I get that the Wilson Fisk identity wasn't created yet till that Hobgoblin story, but it is pretty funny Early-Installment Weirdness.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 8th 2023 at 12:24:34 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Godwriter King of the Koopas from Maryland (The New Guy) Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
King of the Koopas
#29544: Aug 7th 2023 at 9:38:25 AM

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/img_3468_1.jpeg

If Mary Jane Watson ever appears in any future spider man works or in a continuation of avengers earth’s mightiest heros I’d like to get Rachel Mc Farlane (Seth’s sister)to voice her. Hayley Smiths voice from American Dad in my opinion would really fit MJ and can you imagine her singing making Whoopi’s? grin https://youtu.be/tUMIDWil4VQ

Edited by Godwriter on Aug 7th 2023 at 9:39:15 AM

The Ultimate Incarnation of Evil
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#29545: Aug 7th 2023 at 9:39:04 AM

I'm picturing Kingpin in the early days of their criminal career, and some mob boss going, "So, this new recruit. Guy's calling himself 'the Kingpin'. No other name, just 'the Kingpin'. Should ... should I be worried? Is he coming for my job?"

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29546: Aug 7th 2023 at 9:42:43 AM

Even more silly is that Jameson was kidnapped by him in Kingpin's debut arc so you'd think Jolly Jameson would crucify Fisk in the papers or start a campaign against the Kingpin and past his face everywhere so people can identify him.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#29547: Aug 7th 2023 at 9:54:35 AM

It later turns out that Fisk and Jonah attend the same social club

Maybe he just didn’t want to start club drama

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LadyBlackwood The show must go on from Wouldn't you like to know? Since: Jun, 2023 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The show must go on
#29548: Aug 7th 2023 at 10:45:22 AM

I like the idea that the Goblin serum doesn't turn you insane and that Norman and, to a lesser extent, Harry were already like that. The serum just gave them powers and made them more impulsive and erratic but didn't alter their sanity or their sense of morality in any meaningful way.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29549: Aug 7th 2023 at 10:46:30 AM

Yeah that's how it was portrayed in the original version.

Norman just realized with great power, comes EVEN MORE POWER!

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#29550: Aug 7th 2023 at 11:49:59 AM

I'm picturing Kingpin in the early days of their criminal career, and some mob boss going, "So, this new recruit. Guy's calling himself 'the Kingpin'. No other name, just 'the Kingpin'. Should ... should I be worried? Is he coming for my job?"

"No, it's cause he's fat, white, and has a bald head."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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