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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29501: Aug 6th 2023 at 10:09:14 PM

And according to Punisher Spider-Man, Goblin's armor is bullet resistant so Ock doesn't have the option of just shooting Goblin from afar.

In general, this is why I prefer the Green Goblin over Doc Ock, Fisk, and Venom. He just has cooler powers, gadgets, and more story potential.

Like there's an aerodynamic aspect to his fights with Spider-Man that those guys don't have.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#29502: Aug 6th 2023 at 11:27:51 PM

I forget the Goblin costume counts as armor because it always looks so skintight.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29503: Aug 6th 2023 at 11:36:18 PM

They sometimes give it a more armored look, like in Marvel Knights.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/spider_man_knights_001_green_goblin.jpg

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29504: Aug 7th 2023 at 12:57:19 AM

Green Goblin is one of Spidey's few enemies that actually feel like a legitimate threat without Peter sandbagging the entire fight for fear of killing them.

Also, I believe it was Marvel Knights that had Peter claim that Norman was smarter than him. Since Peter is smarter than Otto, that would make Norman the smarterest.

I'm a bit dubious on Norman's smarts, though, he didn't even create the original goblin formula.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#29505: Aug 7th 2023 at 1:01:38 AM

Yeah, I frankly get irrationally angry at any attempts to push Norman and it's a large reason why I ditched Spider-Man for a decade. He was brought back by the Clone Saga and that almost killed Spider-Man for me.

I further hate it when they try and shill Norman at Otto's expense.

Also, I believe it was Marvel Knights that had Peter claim that Norman was smarter than him. Since Peter is smarter than Otto, that would make Norman the smarterest.

Peter becoming Norman's shoe shine boy doesn't surprise me with this attitude.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 7th 2023 at 1:02:27 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29506: Aug 7th 2023 at 1:04:04 AM

To be fair, he was not saying it as a compliment to Norman, but just highlighting what a ridiculous fuck-up Norman was by continuing to stick to the goblin bullshit.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 7th 2023 at 1:04:16 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#29507: Aug 7th 2023 at 1:08:17 AM

Very true.

I don't hate Norman as a villain. He IS the Spider-Archvillain but I also feel like he gets overdone like the Joker.

Similarly with how much he gets away with.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29508: Aug 7th 2023 at 1:09:41 AM

Personally, I'd argue Doc Ock gets more screen time and undeserved credit than Norman.

But yeah, I don't hate Ock or Fisk either.

I just prefer Norman Osborn as Spider-Man arch enemy and he's such a fun bad guy IMO.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 4:12:50 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#29509: Aug 7th 2023 at 1:14:26 AM

Superior Spider-Man should have been the Ultimate Doc Ock story but kind of got jumbled with the world's worst redemption arc.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29510: Aug 7th 2023 at 1:20:02 AM

It's also hampered down by Dan Slott writing.

Volume 2 was way better.

Personally, one of my favorite Doc Ock stories was Negative Exposure.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29511: Aug 7th 2023 at 1:49:35 AM

Norman more portrayed as a evil business man than a evil scientist more times. Surrounded by scientist henchmen he abuses rather than inventing the stuff on the scene.

The I'm something of a scientist myself is a meme for a reason

Norman's most popular portrayals Spectacular and Raimi downplay that he's about as smart as Tony Stark in the comics.

Unlike Lex Luthor who's intellect is always front and center as he was an evil scientist before his evil businessman scientist reinvention.

My main issue with Norman is editorials insisent need to insert him into stories he doesn't belong in (Clone Saga and Sins Past). For no other reason beyond he's Spidey's arch enemy.

Also @Red Hunter 543 yes and no Norman's armor explodes to negate the force of your average 9mm rounds, what NYC police use, and has Kevlar underneath.

The Punishing Spider just used an armor piecercing round and two telfon slugs firing out of his wrist gun in a three shot burst to hit Norman in the exact spot to instantly kill him. So just some specialized pistol ammunition.

So really a high powered rifle would get through Norman's armor and kevlar.

I.E Otto had a sniper drone from afar Norman would die, but that won't make for an interesting story.

Edited by FKJ10 on Aug 7th 2023 at 2:00:40 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29512: Aug 7th 2023 at 3:58:32 AM

Lex has also gone through those phases where he’s more of a business man than scientist.

Like that famous John Byrne storyline where he hires the scientist lady to build a machine for him to deduce who Superman is.

With Norman, he was put in the clone saga to untangle that mess because he was the only villain who could pull something big like that off and Sins Past is a fuck up of a story and he was put in that story out of desperation since he and Gwen had interactions back in the silver age.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 7:00:40 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#29513: Aug 7th 2023 at 4:26:12 AM

[up] So, in other words, we should expect that when editorial changes hands and One More Day finally gets overturned, we'll see Norman Osborn get thrown in to resolve that mess too.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29514: Aug 7th 2023 at 4:32:59 AM

Difference is think of Lex's most famous animated version vs Norman's

(DCAU v Spectacular)

From Superman TAS to JL Lex is always the calculating mind who is seen working on his inventions while running circles around the JL and the government.

In Spectacular because of the season 1 fake out we just see Norman as the asshole dad and businessman cheating/abusing his scientists (Tomes and Otto)

It's not until the end does the curtain is pulled and we see Norman is a criminal genius.

Norman in the Clone Saga just raised further questions and undid genuinely good things like Aunt May's passing.

The genetically altered actress was so dumb and just a backpeddle on an important development.

Not to mention Mayday's stillbirth

In fact the entire reason behind the Clone Saga's confusion was just because Marvel could not commit to Ben Reiley being the "real" Peter after fan backlash so they backpeddled hard to the status quo. Using Norman as that vehicle.

"Desperation" and Sins Past implied that it was anything close to JMS' vision rather than Joe Quesada again being weird about Peter having a kid and having pre martial sex.

No Sins Past is just a case of editorial being weird about Peter's sex life so Norman cucking Peter was there prefered alternative to him and Gwen having an illegitimate kid.

An alternative JMS was wholly against and wanted to retcon as soon as it was published.

Norman can really be seen as another one of editorials "keep Peter young, immature and miserable" tools.

Edited by FKJ10 on Aug 7th 2023 at 4:35:31 AM

Nofix from Over there Since: Jan, 2015
#29515: Aug 7th 2023 at 4:50:07 AM

"It was me Peter! I was the one who lobbied for Congress to pass the Superhuman Registration Act! I was the one who funneled millions into the campaigns of anti-vigilante congressional candidates! I was the one who blanketed the airwaves with anti-New Warriors propaganda, meant to galvanize public opinion against them and unlicensed superheroes after their monumental blunder in Stamford! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29516: Aug 7th 2023 at 5:08:11 AM

....fuck it I'd believe it.

Honestly if Marvel didn't sell the movie rights to Sony then Norman would have been a central big bad to the MCU. Because Spidey is that much of a money maker.

But that's means a world without the Spiderverse and Raimi movies and I don't want that.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#29517: Aug 7th 2023 at 5:23:56 AM

I mean, him or the Kingpin.

Oddly, a plot point in Wolverine was that the Stamford Incident was a False Flag Operation by Damage Control of all people.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29518: Aug 7th 2023 at 5:33:58 AM

Nah Kingpin reserves that level of pettiness for Daredevil.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#29519: Aug 7th 2023 at 5:48:18 AM

Ultimate Kingpin sells Spider-merchandise.

:)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#29520: Aug 7th 2023 at 5:55:01 AM

The Spencer run had Kingpin be all buddy buddy with Spidey to ruin his relationships with other heroes, I think we can say main Kingpin is petty too.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29521: Aug 7th 2023 at 6:39:23 AM

Fun fact, but it took a LONG time for Lex Luthor in the DCAU to actually be a magnificent basterd, he was usually outplayed by other villains, like Metallo, Brainiac, and then Darkseid in the original series.

Meanwhile, Norman in Spectacular ran circles around the other baddies, even Tombstone who was basically Kingpin in the show.

[up][up] You forgot that he got arrested a bit after buying the rights to Spider-Man's merch and didn't actually manage to make money of it. [lol]

That was the Ultimate Knights arc. I remember it well. Meanwhile Ultimate Green Goblin outlasts Fisk as a Spider-Man villain there. Fisk does hate Spider-Man but it's never nearly as personal as it is compared to Green Goblin.

Like compared to blowing up Daredevil's law offices, Fisk selling Spider-Man merch is pretty tame.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 9:49:04 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29522: Aug 7th 2023 at 7:26:08 AM

I stand by what I've said multiple times. Nothing Norman has done post resurrection has justified bringing him back.

Stories like Sins Past and him becoming a karma houdini as Gold Goblin just makes me say he should have stayed dead.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#29523: Aug 7th 2023 at 7:28:57 AM

Personally, Goblins at the gate, Revenge of the Green Goblin, Dark Reign, Marvel Knights, the end arc of Superior, Go Down Swinging, more than justifies Norman Osborn coming back for me.

Sins past got retconned, and Gold Goblin will go back to being evil soon. (But I will say that as much as it hurts to admit it, Norman's character in Gold Goblin is way more interesting than anything in regular Spider-Man is doing).

Blargh.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 7th 2023 at 10:30:46 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#29524: Aug 7th 2023 at 7:51:35 AM

Never read Goblins at the Gate

Revenge of the Green Goblin: Its the same tired Norman tries to make Peter his successor nonsense. While at this point Peter's response to Norman should just be "on sight."

Dark Reign: I view it the same way I see it's spiritual successor "Secret Empire" the conclusion to a terrible Civil War that hit the too bleak stopped caring along time ago. It only proves my other point. The US government is the most incompetently run institution in marvel. Everything about civil war was garbage and its effects on Spidey (OMD) are still seen today

Superior and Go Down Swinging: I say with confidence Norman should have died there. Peter jumping in front of the bullet was just Marvel again keeping their favorite toy around.

The fact none of these stories are famous (sans the Slott ones due to recency) and fondly remembered like Last Hunt really says one thing.

Norman's best years was in the Lee/Ditko Era. Conway just sent him off with the glider through the chest.

You can't keep a villain around when one of his crimes include infanticide then sweep it under the rug because your too gutless to admit he did it.

Or make him a hero.

Nonsense like this is why I end up siding with The Punisher. Marvel writers/editors don't really care about the heroics. They just care about making the newest shock value story with their favorite villain that ups the anty before hauling them off to prison to re use them.

Edited by FKJ10 on Aug 7th 2023 at 7:54:41 AM

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#29525: Aug 7th 2023 at 7:52:43 AM

Revenge of the Green Goblin is pretty well-regarded, and that storyline started the 'Norman wants Peter as an heir' thing that later media used.

The Protomen enhanced my life.

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