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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#28426: Jul 7th 2023 at 7:07:30 AM

I doubt this is a permanent thing.

I think some comic fans should embrace the temporary nature of changes for the ride they are.

See the Emma Frost and Tony marriage that will undoubtedly be a trainwreck.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28427: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:47:05 AM

Well @Zarius in regards to Gwen Stan Lee wanted her to be with Peter originally MJ was just too popular to ignore and Conway just straight up didn't like her. Hence killing her off in favor of his preferred ship with MJ.

All the stuff in the modern comics from the "perfect clone Gwen" saying she would have lost out to MJ or MJ continuing to bemone she's Gwen's replacement is just Marvel dangling the will they won't they carrot with MJ infront of fans heads.

Hence giving more prominence to the Black Cat and MJ love triangle instead of just letting Peter and MJ be married as they were for 20 years.

We'll also never know what the original plans with Gwen would have been as her creator, Steve Ditko, left severed all ties with Marvel and Stan Lee.

Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#28428: Jul 8th 2023 at 1:31:43 AM

[up] Ideally, I wouldn't have leaned as much into the perfect clone Gwen's testimony as I did, but given the rules of the Conspiracy story were that these doubles all had the 'souls' of the originals, it was worth mentioning, we had gotten the "real" Gwen back briefly, a taste of what how'd she be handled in modern comics, and it turns out she'd have the same insecurities MJ has in regards to her or Felicia, believing she wasn't good enough for Peter even without knowing who he was.

Edited by Zarius on Jul 8th 2023 at 1:32:36 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#28429: Jul 8th 2023 at 1:50:30 AM

It’s still tainted somewhat by Dan Slott writing. Clone Conspiracy just doesn’t work for me personally.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28430: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:26:56 AM

Yeah Dan Slott making Ben Reilly the villain taints the whole story as BS especially with his "I got killed +25 times and am now evil" reason.

Clone Conspiracy is up their in my "You ruined a characters perfectly good ending" category of Spidey stories.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#28431: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:31:04 AM

Though admitably the new Jackal design has some good drip

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28432: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:32:45 AM

Nah it's either Ripped Blue Hoodie Scarlet Spider or nothing for me.

Don't try to fix a good thing.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#28433: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:34:46 AM

Jackal's outfit would be great for Warren though and I'd like to see that in adaptations over the grinch outfit

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28434: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:39:41 AM

Exactly Warren not Ben Reily.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#28435: Jul 8th 2023 at 6:06:14 AM

I suppose the grinch outfit was supposed to signify that this weird dude was the new Green Goblin type guy for the book.

But then they killed him off, brought him back as the Joker, killed him off, brought back the Green Goblin, and brought back the Jackal

So he doesn’t need to be green if he can be a sharp dressed man

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28436: Jul 8th 2023 at 6:15:23 AM

I firmly believe if they didn't fumble the Hobgoblin reveal the need to revive Norman would have been minimal.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#28437: Jul 8th 2023 at 6:23:49 AM

I guess if the original scheming Hobgoblin was around instead of Macendale, it would be plausible he could engineer the clone saga and be used to clean up that mess instead of revealing Norman was just on an extended European vacation and cult building exercise

Although. There were plausible alternatives for the mastermind at the time. But Norman was railroaded as the answer over other candidates

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 8th 2023 at 9:24:49 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#28438: Jul 8th 2023 at 7:48:52 AM

I dunno, it was a point that the Hobgoblin Kingsley was sane and didn't have much of a personal grudge against Spidey, just preferring to make money instead of wasting his time on convoluted revenge schemes against Spidey.

How would the clone saga benefit Kingsley?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#28439: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:01:59 AM

He’d have to find out Spider-Man is Peter and also decide to try to destroy his sense of reality over a period of years instead of just blowing up his house while he was asleep

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#28440: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:20:36 AM

Yeah, so logically Norman was the only villain at the time besides Harry who had the chops and motivation to do something as convoluted as the Clone Saga.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28441: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:29:05 AM

I'm saying in general not specific to the jumbled mess that was the clone saga as the only justification there was Norman is iconic and fans would freak at his return +20 years after his original death.

The craziest thing Norman did before this reveal was kill Gwen Stacy.

Norman being brought back was a sign the Spider-Man comics were regressing which has only proven itself tru through recent years.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jul 8th 2023 at 8:30:19 AM

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#28442: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:55:14 AM

The only other real option would be to bring Harry back from the dead.

But considering they ended up doing that anyway with OMD, would it be that bad to give them a head start on it?

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#28443: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:58:19 AM

[up] Ending Norman's current arc by bringing Harry back at the cost of Norman's life or morality wouldn't be the worst option

Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#28444: Jul 8th 2023 at 9:09:43 AM

I think Marvel are kind of content keeping Harry dead, for the exact same reason they killed off the original Kraven again, those stories where they died are just more iconic

Edited by Zarius on Jul 8th 2023 at 9:09:56 AM

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#28445: Jul 8th 2023 at 9:16:34 AM

I was saying that they could have brought back Harry to mastermind the clone saga instead of Norman.

There was an alternate take on it done that did exactly that.

I don't want him back now, even if his death was very poorly handled.

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28446: Jul 8th 2023 at 9:35:28 AM

Norman (Death of Gwen Stacy)

Harry (Spectacular Spider-Man #200)

Kraven (Last Hunt)

Ben Reiley (Clone Saga)

Doc Ock (Superior Spider-Man)

All should have stayed dead with no resurrection.

Heck I'll even throw Morlun in here as everything after the first Spiderverse comic was just brand synergy with the movies.

Plus it only really draws more attention to that Spidey's other rogues: Electro; Shocker; Vulture; Rhino and even Kingpin (he's better with Daredevil) are really underutilized.

Also speaking of Daredevil. Spidey having his secret identity exposed in What if Spidey saved Gwen Stacy? wasn't nearly as bad as what happened to Matt Murdock in born again.

I mean Gwen isn't addicted to heroin and reduces to prostitution to feed her addiction like Karen Page.

Nor did Peter lose all his friends, support system, go through a nervous breakdown and get his home blown up.

So I'd say that ending was bitter sweet at best.

Gwen is still alive well, fully accepts Peter and Spider-Man (ride or die) and Robbie is helping as well. Honestly in that What if Peter could make a deal with Shield for amnesty in exchange for his services.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jul 8th 2023 at 9:35:57 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#28447: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:08:40 AM

Though Doc Ock died during the Clone Saga IIRC because Kaine killed him.

And then Marvel revived him.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28448: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:10:26 AM

Yeah but honestly Superior Spider-Man gave Doc Ock a better send off and as much as I criticize Dan Slott he truly gave Otto his best story.

Also speaking of stories the latest Silk series has an interesting premise showing how insecure Cindy's btother is with his super powered older sister.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jul 8th 2023 at 10:11:36 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#28449: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:24:35 AM

Uh doubt marvel would have gone with that. Having both of spidey's arch enemies permanently dead would have been too much.

I like shocker and vulture but their not really charActers meant to be big things. I remember one of the biggest critiques of Zeb's run being Peter losing to vulture a guy he beats up all The time.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#28450: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:34:40 AM

It's the difference between homecoming and Zeb Wells's run

Homecoming: Justified this is still a young rookie spiderman a few years into being a hero and his first major villain. So of course he'd have issues with Keaton's Vulture especially after Tony takes his upgraded suit away.

Zeb Wells'run: No excuses. Peter is a grown ass man and it's been established multiple times that him not pulling his punches can at best punch a man's jaw clean off and at worse kill them. Him begging Norman of all people for help is all kinds of pathetic.

Plus you don't even have to make them stronger just give them an interesting story.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jul 8th 2023 at 10:35:36 AM


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