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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27876: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:46:17 AM

Preacher for one is definitely homophobic - literally every non-heteronormative character in it is a villain.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27877: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:47:51 AM

Okay, we'd better keep this Spider-Man related. I don't like Garth Ennis but this isn't the thread.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27878: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:50:50 AM

[up] Agreed. Spidey and Frank's crossovers are on-topic, whichever book they happen in. Preacher, not so much.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#27879: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:52:33 AM

Speaking of the Burglar, I can't help but notice that he is at his most sympathetic when adaptations combine him other characters.

In Spider-Man 3, Flint Marko shooting Ben was an accident and it's implied he'd have just followed Ben's advice to go home if his partner hadn't shown up and startled him. I think this is also the only version in which Peter forgives his uncle's killer. And there's Spectacular Spider-Man where the burglar is also Felicia Hardy's father who deeply regrets killing Ben and chooses to stay in prison to atone for that particular crime.


I don't necessarily see an issue with Peter sparing his villains and then killing them later under different circumstances. I'm not saying Peter has to be a killer, but if you are going to write him as a Punisher-like antihero, showing that he is still more merciful than Frank is a decent middle ground.

Edited by windleopard on Jun 18th 2023 at 5:54:31 PM

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27880: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:55:53 AM

It's Garth Ennis. He's gone on record saying he doesn't like Superheroes sans Superman.

Personally hates Captain America and in his Punisher kills the Marvel Universe treated Daredevil as a well meaning but foolish.

Garth Ennis isn't a bigot he's just crass and has no filter in letting his characters who are such act like they would irl.

Those racist and homophobic characters usually meet horrible ends like in The Boys

Is it upsetting that Spidey will also get the short end of the stick with Ennis at the Helm. Yeah but at least he's honest and says he straight up hates the character instead of this weird melodrama Wells puts him through while saying he likes the web head.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27881: Jun 18th 2023 at 10:02:44 AM

[up][up] The issue with Spider-Punisher sparing Norman is 1, it's clearly plot contrivance so the Night Gwen Stacy died can happen.

And 2, it's inconsistent with how Spider-Punisher is portrayed since he didn't have any issue killing his rogues gallery before and he's not portrayed as any more merciful than Frank was, but now is suddenly sparing Norman because he's amnesiac?(Even putting aside the fact that the fight ALSO just happens to retread canon and end with Norman losing his memory.) And the story paints his mercy has weakness since it allows Norman to threaten Gwen. There's really nothing to make this Peter more of a Punisher style vigilante other than having a different outfit at the start. Like I said, I would buy it if Uncle Ben and Aunt May dying was the divergence point.

All of Punisher Spidey's actions are rewarded, even him shooting Green Goblin when he's holding Gwen Stacy over the bridge ends up saving Gwen thanks to convenient scaffolding.

Like seriously? Shooting someone who has a hostage is a shitty thing to do but the writing bends over backwards to justify him.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 19th 2023 at 1:05:55 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#27882: Jun 18th 2023 at 10:07:03 AM

I mean, I feel Norman's amnesia is a pretty good reason to let him go, at least the first time.

And he couldn't have killed Osborn before that point because assuming all the events went the same, he wasn't in the position to.

In his first appearance, Osborn ditches Peter and forces him to fight the Hulk, in his second appearance, Spidey has to flee cause Aunt May took ill, and in the gang war stories, Osborn was taking out crime bosses from behind the scenes without anyone knowing.

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27883: Jun 18th 2023 at 10:18:44 AM

[up][up]Shooting the villain despite them having a hostage is a trope to show the hero has no doubts in their abilities in this life and death situation

Even Commissioner Gordon did it back in Batman Year One when his wife and infant son were being kidnapped by the mafia to keep him off their case.

Punisher Spider-Man did show mercy to his villains initially and he showed it to an amnesiac Norman specifically because of Harry and he wasn't an immediate threat.

He killed the Sinister Six only after they kidnapped Aunt May and Betty Brant.

Heck the burglar was in heat of the moment rage when he saw his face after the burglar fired the first shot.

It's clear you just don't like the Punisher as a character even when this Punishing Spidey is a much more sanitized version of the concept with his "only kill when an immediate threat rule."

Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 18th 2023 at 10:19:35 AM

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#27884: Jun 18th 2023 at 10:19:45 AM

My favorite tidbit about the Burglar is that he has his own Wikipedia page. Yes, the bit character who doesn't even have a real name most of the time has his own page. At least Joe Chill is sometimes fleshed out as an actual character but this guy is known for shooting a defenseless old man and pretty much nothing else.

And the page literally calls him "The Burglar", capitalized, like it's his actual supervillain name:

Following the Burglar's first one-off appearance, there have been multiple successors to the Burglar identity.

Yeah, the Burglar is officially a Legacy Character apparently. So sayeth Wikipedia.

Edited by lbssb on Jun 18th 2023 at 1:31:24 PM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27886: Jun 18th 2023 at 10:45:45 AM

[up][up] Interesting that it mentions the Betty Brant What It?, which I read an hour or two back.

Anyone know if the alternate spiders from that issue ever got revisited in Spider-Verse events?

In the three different variations, with different characters taking Peter's role as a hero:

  • Flash is killed by the Vulture due to his lack of webbing
  • John Jameson dies heroically saving an astronaut
  • Betty retires - powers intact - after she fails to stop the burglar killing Ben. It doesn't destroy her relationship with Peter (her Mission Control and gadget maker), though.
...and in all three Peter ends up replicating his 616 powers by analysing the spider's corpse and becomes a Legacy Character hero as Spider-Man.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 18th 2023 at 6:46:04 PM

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#27887: Jun 18th 2023 at 11:09:04 AM

They did a Modern take on the Flash story in like 2018 by Gerry Conway that I thought was pretty cool.

In it, Flash was hated by the people because he's more violent, but Jonah is fine with it because John dies in that universe. He also stops the burglar, meaning Uncle Ben is alive, but Aunt May still is about to die like she was in the Master Planner saga.

And so Flash and Peter get into an argument over his methods, and he accidentally kills Peter, which makes him realize how awful he was being, and it ends with him being arrested after saving Aunt May's life.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#27888: Jun 18th 2023 at 1:26:27 PM

One thing I appreciate about Ennis is that when the Punisher and Kingpin go at it, it's a Mutual Kill. The Kingpin is every bit as tough as Frank and the two of them can't go after one another without bringing the other down. It was a rare moment of giving one of my favorite villains his due.

As for Spider-Punisher, I don't like the Punisher and think Peter Parker killing is a terrible idea but I appreciate the joke and like that they just had one Peter done with this shit and get away with it.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 18th 2023 at 1:27:07 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27889: Jun 18th 2023 at 2:34:08 PM

I do like how in the Zdarsky Daredevil run, even while injured when freed from his binds Matt immediately throttles Frank

And he makes a point that if he ever decided to cut lode he could cause far more carnage than Punisher is capable of.

"Do you have any idea? Any idea at all what I can do? The level of carnage I could unleash with a gun in my hand? The number of dead if I decided to be like you? It's no contest, Frank. You're amateur hour. You're a demon, sure, but I'm the Devil."

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 18th 2023 at 2:34:25 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27890: Jun 18th 2023 at 2:47:59 PM

I also recall the time Spidey decided to put Frank down once and for all. Frank went all I don't want to hurt you and took a swing at him.

Pete didn't even flinch. And then told Frank What makes you think you ever could?

And lets not forget the story where Frank kills Daredevil. Spider-Man goes after him over it, but screws up, and gets his identity exposed, resulting in Aunt May's death at the hands of vengeful mobsters. Peter goes off the deep end, tracks down Frank, and is out for blood, and Frank has the horrible realization of just how much Spider-Man has been holding back on him in their previous encounters.

Yeah. Frank ain't shit.

One Strip! One Strip!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#27891: Jun 18th 2023 at 3:44:55 PM

I have mixed feelings about Frank Castle but do think sometimes writers go overboard. Frank would never join HYDRA like he did in Secret Empire, for example.

BTW, where was Frank vs. Peter Parker's story?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 18th 2023 at 3:49:43 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27892: Jun 18th 2023 at 5:40:50 PM

When the hell did Frank kill Daredevil?

[up] Granted, Frank only joined Hydra because of his admiration for Steve.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 18th 2023 at 8:45:15 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27893: Jun 18th 2023 at 6:48:32 PM

An issue of What If?.

Scans Daily has it here.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jun 18th 2023 at 6:49:19 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27894: Jun 18th 2023 at 6:50:51 PM

Spice Importer Wilson Fisk?

LMAO.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27895: Jun 18th 2023 at 8:59:39 PM

Who Punisher can beat is wholly dependent on if the writer likes the Punisher.

They don't like him you'll get a story where a B list villain like Shocker casually blasts him away. Or Spidey and Daredevil humble him real quick

If they like Frank, Punisher will beat Daredevil, Spidey and even get into a philosophical debate over there no kill rule.

If they really like him like Garth Ennis. Then Punisher casually kills them.

Frank is a controversial character as you can literally tell what the writer thinks of them when you got other heroes talking through them at Frank.

The latest Punisher story is a prime example where the avengers capture, judge him as the worst serial killer, call his war on crime a farce. Then bring in his recently resurrected wife to say she hates him and always wanted a divorce. Frank then erases himself from the universe and this is the Punisher's current fate.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27896: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:05:58 PM

Its not like I hate Frank, I just really hate Ennies glamorization of him.

He's a regular guy guns, he is literally the least special person on the planet. Ennies nonstop suck-off of the powerless vigilante guys is so unbearably fucking nail in the brain annoying.

Like on his own he's impressive but put him up against an actual superhuman and he's immediately out of his paygrade.

[up] Now see that goes too far with the character. Especially the apparent bit that Maria actually cheated on him in their marriage, now thats just being nasty for the sake of nasty.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 18th 2023 at 9:06:38 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#27897: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:07:56 PM

I've said this before, but that very much seems like an attempt to put him into cold storage like Eddie from Rocky Horror until the alt-right stops worshiping him. tongue

Nofix from Over there Since: Jan, 2015
#27898: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:10:38 PM

The way I always pictured the platonic fight between Spidey and Frank is that Frank has the advantage of luring Peter into a space, getting the jump on him with traps and weapons; but the moment Peter shifts momentum he can take out Frank in two clean hits.

Frank Castle has never stuck me as a character that can hold a long ongoing series, at least in Marvel. The "logical" end to his character, at least to me, has always been a man who goes down swinging against a bunch of faceless crooks who outgun him, or a man that somehow crawls through the blood and guts he's drowning in to achieve redemption. But neither sells comics, so yeah.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#27899: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:14:28 PM

I mean Frank Castle is Mack Bolan, so he can last forever.

But I do love him as a Foil for heroes.

A frank castle Expy is the Origin Story for my supervillain series.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27900: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:55:03 PM

Ironically Garth Ennis gave Frank his best ending in that What if

Killing himself because Frank will never truly be at peace.

Its kinda funny how this villain of the week for Spidey, soared to extreme popularity, took on a life of his own, and now Marvel wants to distance themselves from him because a few too many thin blue line and Trump supporters really like him.


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