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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27851: Jun 18th 2023 at 6:13:04 AM

It's exactly a Simpsons Bit with Fat Tony dying and Fit Tony becoming the new Fat Tony.

Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#27852: Jun 18th 2023 at 6:13:29 AM

Punisher Peter and ATSV Peter AREN'T the only happy Parkers out there

MC 2 Peter has a happy life with a teenage Mayday and young son, is happily married to MJ too. He may have been killed off in Spider-Verse but he was brought back to life and is living that happy life again

And the Renew Your Vows Parkers fight crime together and raised a daughter who became crucial to the Web of life and destiny in Annie.

Edited by Zarius on Jun 18th 2023 at 6:14:41 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27853: Jun 18th 2023 at 6:14:50 AM

Kraven is the type of villain who is better off dead since they haven’t done anything good with him and he’s nowhere near as good a villain as Norman.

I don't think any character is better off dead. All they need is someone willing to put in the work with them.

Now if they're death works for the story, ok. Kraven's original death worked. Norman's was fine too.

I do think you have to be willing to let go sometimes.

One Strip! One Strip!
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27854: Jun 18th 2023 at 6:35:18 AM

[up] I think I agree.

Almost any character can be used for a great story or two, if the creators find the right angle.

But by the same token, stories need consequences and endings. And when Marvel are very unlikely to kill or significantly change Peter - at least in any way that truly lasts - there's more emphasis on changes to the supporting cast and adversaries.

Last Hunt was a great exit for Kraven. Writers will keep wanting to put him back in the toybox for one more story - much as they keep cloning Gwen and, occasionally, we get Uncle Ben turning up temporarily.

But the more you do that, the more you risk diluting the original story everyone fondly remembers.

(Exceptions apply to some other parts of the MU - Krakoa and the Eternals threw death away, and dead characters in Thor still get to hang around in an afterlife, for example, but even then...)

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27855: Jun 18th 2023 at 7:42:57 AM

@Zarius I use Punisher!Spidey and Peter B. for three very big reasons

1. Beyond the Spider-Verse is gonna be the finale of that trilogy and Disney!Marvel aren't gonna promote a Sony version of the character. So no comics to mess up his story.

2. Disney!Marvel are cutting all ties with the Punisher IP for the foreseeable future so doubt they'll even market a Spider-Man with an emblem now associated with the far right/military/police in any Spider-Verse comic.

3. MC 2 Peter unceremoniously dying in the original Spider-Verse just says they can and will ruin a happy Peter's life for cheap drama. So I wouldn't put it past them to do the same with RYV's Peter.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27856: Jun 18th 2023 at 7:46:19 AM

MC 2 Spidey actually came back IIRC.

And no, Norman has all sorts of great stories that keep him a top tier villain, Dark Reign, Revenge of the Green Goblin, Goblins at the gate, Thunderbolts, ETC.

So I'm personally far more happy with him around. Hell, him outplaying Doc Ock at the end of Superior is one of my favorite things in Spider-Man.

Yeah he's a crutch for bad writing, but it's hardly his fault he's so useful for that sort of thing.

And on the topic of Punisher Spidey, he's pretty much a Karma Houdini and Gwen is only alive thanks to scaffolding.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 18th 2023 at 10:49:24 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27857: Jun 18th 2023 at 8:07:32 AM

How is Punishing Spidey a karma houdini?

The only "bad" thing he did was get rid of his rogues gallery after they kept coming back despite him just beating them up the first time.

Heck he saved Gwen's life because of the scaffolding and because he just shot Goblin mid monologue instead of getting into a quipy battle with Norman like in the original comic allowing him to save Gwen faster.

If anything he's saved more lives then the current Spider-Man who been reduced to begging Tombstone for mercy and can't win a fight against the Vulture without Norman's help.

Lord knows Matt Murdock's life is infinitely better with Kingpin dead.

I'll never get this logic in super hero comics the hero is worse than the villain with a body count that would make Jeffrey Dahmer blush...for just killing the villain.

Despite again these are comics and the costumed villain will just return. Same can't be said for his victims.

Norman Osborn will always come back whenever the next writer needs to break the "In case of failing story use Goblin" glass

Gwen Stacy? She ain't ever being properly resurrected especially with Spider Gwen.

Mayday? She is deader than dead after our hero Spdiey made a deal with the devil.

Flash? Got me there thank symbiote nonsense allowing his soul to go back to his body and crawl out of his grave Jason Todd style.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#27858: Jun 18th 2023 at 8:23:54 AM

I mean, he also executed the burglar who shot uncle Ben in cold blood. That's, like, explicitly his origin story.

Killing the supervillains in the heat of combat is fine, but the burglar was just a guy who wanted some buried treasure.

Edited by Joshbones on Jun 18th 2023 at 8:32:22 AM

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27859: Jun 18th 2023 at 8:32:02 AM

Imma be 100% I've never had sympathy with for version of the burglar that killed Uncle Ben.

Even in Spider-Man 3 when Flint Marco was retconned as his killer kid me was only sad for his daughter when Bully Mcguire was out for blood.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 18th 2023 at 8:32:48 AM

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27860: Jun 18th 2023 at 8:35:02 AM

And this is why the Punisher's problematic. Because we end up cheering for a vigilante who simply executes the bad guys without any sort of trial, and never gets it wrong.

No wonder the alt-right and some police departments like the characters.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27861: Jun 18th 2023 at 8:48:17 AM

Yeah, and What if Spidey became the Punisher actually portrayed happy ending with it also being portrayed as good Frank gets inspired by Punisher Spidey is why it's one of my least favorite Spidey stories.

Plus don't even get me on the shitty writing that this Spidey is willing to kill yet somehow also spares his rogues except when it's convenient to the writing to kill them.

Logically, the night Gwen Stacy died shouldn't even happen by the story's own rules yet the writing contrives it to happen and has Gwen live in a really silly way thanks to the scaffolding that wasn't in the original story, just so the writer could show this Punisher Spidey is WAY COOLER than regular Spidey.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 18th 2023 at 11:48:39 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27862: Jun 18th 2023 at 8:48:19 AM

I fail to see the real difference in this and Manga that just gets rid of their villains at the end of each arc.

Like no one bats an eye at Kenshiro who entire gimmick is swift death to evil.

Or even modern stories like Demon Slayer where Tanjiro is the nicest guy in the world but won't hesitate to bedhead a man eating Demon.

Heck even Saitama was killing monsters who were humans just a few moments ago and way before he was even a registered hero

Superhero comics are just way too in love with their favorite toys (ie villains) and want to keep a forever revolving narrative with increasing stakes and body counts.

Making outliers like the Punisher or Jason Todd more appealing as the lock up or forgive the villain plot becomes absurd to casual fans to get behind.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#27863: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:00:17 AM

The thing about the Punisher is he doesn't solve this issue because he goes after generic mobsters without names. The highest profile guy he ever got was Stilt-Man.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27864: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:05:09 AM

Even beyond the usual "SHOULD SUPERHEROES KILL" topic, What if Spider-Man became the Punisher is just such a boring story IMO. Like it has a Spidey that KILLS, yet there isn't much reason for this Spidey to kill beyond the different costume he got giving him a gun fetish.

Like, I'd buy it if Uncle Ben AND Aunt May died leaving Peter with no family and just vengeance, but it's mostly just a retread of Spidey canon right down to Norman getting amnesia and Spider-Punisher sparing him so the night Gwen Stacy died can happen and a convenient scaffolding saves Gwen Stacy and Peter gets away with vigilante killings. Like the story even notes that his killings created a vacuum and more mob activity as a result but Peter gets to live happily ever after.

The story felt like someone's fanfic for the Punisher.

And IIRC, Spider-Punisher directly endangered Gwen Stacy's life by shooting Green Goblin while he was holding her, yet due to writer contrivance saves her in this one.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 19th 2023 at 12:10:18 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27865: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:14:03 AM

Frank Castle always worked best as street level going against real gangs, cartels and mobs.

Despite appearing initially as a Spider-Man villain he's had his best synergy with Daredevil and the Kingpin as they are the most grounded/gritty.

The vigilante character has always been a staple of American culture from the old west myths to the Clint Eastwood films during the golden Era of Hollywood to Jon Wick as of late

The desire for one is never gonna go away even if Marvel completely erases Frank from the marvel universe. Which they have as of late.

Also the opinion on should super heroes kill its rather should they go back to killing?

The original Batman killed like alot.

Then the seduction of innocence and parents outcry caused the "comics code authority" which made the universal no killing rule for the main publishers.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 18th 2023 at 9:17:45 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27866: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:15:40 AM

Is there any explanation for why the Punisher hasn't killed Fisk besides the power vacuum one?

Like Frank seems more the type to see gang wars as hunting season.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#27867: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:19:28 AM

If his encounter with Shocker is any indication, going after Fisk and company seems like the kind of thing that'd end up... poorly for Castle.

Wake me up at your own risk.
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27868: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:20:19 AM

Main line Fisk keeps getting away.

Aka Editors won't let Daredevil's and Spidey's signature crimelord die

Punisher MAX? Dead

Frank is at his best written by Garth Ennis who ignores all the cape stuff for pure crime drama.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 18th 2023 at 9:23:20 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27869: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:22:27 AM

Funnily enough, Ultimate Fisk also was the subject of "Should Spider-Man and Daredevil kill him?" stories but then Mysterio just killed him later on.

Then Ultimate Scorpion took over IIRC.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#27870: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:32:19 AM

The Punisher's encounters with the superhuman don't usually go well for him. I'll always remember that one Runaways issue where he got punched in the gut by Molly Hayes.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#27871: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:33:42 AM

There was a What If where he did kill Spider-Man and had just about every superhero gunning for him.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27872: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:38:10 AM

[up][up] As posted to the "General Marvel" thread yesterday, for those that don't follow it.

Discussion there also covered some of the less positive things about Ennis's MU run - the transphobic (and, arguably, homophobic) stuff that hasn't aged well and the use of Spider-Man and Wolverine as idiots who only exist to be mocked and outsmarted by Frank and his antagonists.

Ennis's Punisher MAX was bleak and held together well. But his MU run couldn't resist the occasional cheap laugh, especially at the expense of Spidey and other costumed heroes.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 18th 2023 at 5:38:33 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27873: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:41:29 AM

Garth Ennis has shitty politics basically.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#27874: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:43:43 AM

I wonder whether it hurt more when Molly ruptured his kidneys or when Shocker hit him so hard with a cad that he flew away like Team Rocket

And which hurt most psychologically

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27875: Jun 18th 2023 at 9:46:00 AM

Punisher could not chase Shocker to the ends of the earth.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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