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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27551: Jun 5th 2023 at 5:36:51 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, the clone idea was just a one and done thing that Conway did his best to bury.

But Marvel just can't let an idea go without squeezing every chance of profit from it.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#27552: Jun 5th 2023 at 6:43:22 PM

The Clone Saga basically was originally a fairly simple story.

Harry Osborn and the Jackal.

It got horribly expanded because Marvel was bankrupt and all of the Spidey-fans were buying it (myself included). Except it got so bad that people who grew up reading Spiderman from 11 to 20 (me again) dropped it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27553: Jun 5th 2023 at 9:10:37 PM

Then it got retconned into all an elaborate plan by the alive (He Got Better) Norman Osborn as part of his many plans to hurt Peter.

From kidnapping or killing his infant daughter

Faking Aunt May's death and kidnapping her

To all the clone shenanigans

Honestly if Joker and Reverse Flash didn't exist Norman Osborn would be without a doubt the most obsessed villain.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 5th 2023 at 9:11:05 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27554: Jun 5th 2023 at 9:20:02 PM

I mean, Spider-Man did accidentally give him amnesia and a shit ton of headaches. To a guy like Norman, that would be the ultimate insult. To live again as a weak man without the power of the Goblin.

So the whole Clone Saga plotlines do make a lot of internal logic to Norman. Spider-Man caused him to have an identity crisis, so might as well pay that back a thousand times fold.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Dracoblade Since: May, 2009
#27555: Jun 5th 2023 at 10:52:59 PM

And it did have the silver lining of bringing back Osborn, who by that point had been dead for 20 years.

Edited by Dracoblade on Jun 5th 2023 at 10:53:18 AM

Dracoblade Since: May, 2009
#27557: Jun 5th 2023 at 11:08:14 PM

[up] It's more what happened after. As lame as him coming back that way was, it opened the door for some great Green Goblin stories to come after.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27558: Jun 5th 2023 at 11:22:05 PM

And Spider-Verse Unlimited ends, with Peter, Miles, Cindy, Gwen and Julia (Madame Web) facing a power-stealing spider-foe... who's revealed to be Anansi, the first spider.

So it's not a huge surprise that he's playing the Trickster Mentor and confirming that they actively want to keep the powers, despite the troubles and responsibility they bring.

"I needed to know that you want these lives — that these powers aren't a burden. I want your stories to be more than misery and pain. You all have such strong hearts — I don't want them to break"

(And that's why he'll never be allowed to write a Spider-book).

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 5th 2023 at 7:22:27 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27559: Jun 5th 2023 at 11:42:30 PM

[up][up] Yeah, I agree the Clone Saga bringing back Norman was the best thing it did.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#27560: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:25:47 AM

[up] The Clone Saga's best legacy is Spider-Girl actually.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27561: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:27:56 AM

I give What if that credit.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#27562: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:28:58 AM

[up] It still follows the same continuity as the 90s Clone Saga, it just gives us the intended ending and not the Aunt May swap.

Edited by Zarius on Jun 6th 2023 at 12:29:22 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27563: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:30:09 AM

It was What if that actually gave us Spider-Girl.

The Clone Saga just had her kidnapped/dead and all we got were teases over it. It didn't deliver Spider-Girl.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#27564: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:30:42 AM

[up] That's not my point

My point is it still follows the continuity of the clone saga, it's the happy ending to it, so for all the people who constantly say it only has one legacy (good Norman Osborn stories, and even THAT's debatable), I say it has another people should appreciate more.

Edited by Zarius on Jun 6th 2023 at 12:33:30 PM

Nofix from Over there Since: Jan, 2015
#27565: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:34:57 AM

I've mentioned this before but, I still prefer how the 2010 miniseries handled it, wherein it was Harry who was behind everything, having faked his death, and it was a heroic clone of Norman Osborne that sacrificed himself to stop his deranged son.

It played more into the "family" motif that was a reoccurring theme in the Clone Saga. Plus it did a better job of showing how Norman could be a genuinely good person without a.) the influence of the Goblin serum, and b.) the perspective of someone with Norman's memories being able to take a step back and see just how messed up things became because of him.

It really does amaze me how the Clone Saga had so many chances to end up not being so bad and so widely reviled for so long, but they kept rolling Nat 1's.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27566: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:35:38 AM

[up][up]I dunno, feels like giving it undue credit when it's something an alternate continuity did with the story by giving the Parkers their daughter back, anything the actual 90s Clone Saga did to introduce Spider-Girl was incidental and in a different continuity.

While Norman Osborn coming back was something the actual story did and it stuck in the main continuity.

[up] I mean, Norman was a pretty shit dad before the formula.

Peter describes him as a bad man made worse for a reason.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 7th 2023 at 3:37:20 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#27567: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:42:50 AM

[up] The 'main continuity' is the lesser of the two I feel. It's just a depressing slog that people simply HAVE to put up with because there's nothing else.

Spider-Girl's timeline may be an alternate, but it has the same history of 616 prior to 1998, so it definitely feels like a more natural continuation, and Spider-Girl lasted longer than the Clone Saga in publication too

I find it amusing that while the Clone Saga has had some great legacies and revised adaptations (Ultimate, Real Saga, Spider-Man: TAS), 616 continues to screw it up even to this day

Edited by Zarius on Jun 6th 2023 at 12:51:04 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27568: Jun 6th 2023 at 1:05:14 AM

Well I think what matters is that it was What If that introduced Spider-Girl, not 90s Clone Saga.

Sure Clone Saga was the base, but Spider-Girl was introduced in spite of the Clone Saga, not because of it.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27569: Jun 6th 2023 at 2:05:38 AM

Nah I would have preferred Osborn stay dead after the death of Gwen Stacy given his stories that came after

Sins Past

Dark Avengers

Red Goblin

Gold Goblin

All ranged from Decent (Dark Avengers) to Erase this from the face of the earth (Sins Past)

Norman really worked best in the Raimi films. Iconic villain in the first movie whose presence is felt in the sequels.

Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#27570: Jun 6th 2023 at 2:18:08 AM

Red Goblin was great though.

#IceBearForPresident
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27571: Jun 6th 2023 at 2:29:28 AM

Still not worth retconning Aunt May's original death

Killing/Kidnapping Mayday

Everything about Sins Past

Flash Thompson dying at the end and Norman living despite doing much worse compared to "The Death of Gwen Stacy" just left a bitter taste in my mouth

Thing I will never get about comics is sometimes they can get a villain or characters end perfect but just bring them back to go through the motions. Until maybe a new writer can think of a half decent story.

Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 6th 2023 at 2:32:03 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27572: Jun 6th 2023 at 2:44:44 AM

Ehhh, I really enjoyed Goblins at the Gate, Revenge of the Green Goblin and all of Dark Reign.

So Norman coming back is a plus for me at least.

Hell, how he ends Superior was great as well.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 6th 2023 at 5:45:21 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#27573: Jun 6th 2023 at 4:23:28 AM

Clone Saga actually went horrifyingly off the rails because of two elements and those two elements are the same ones behind "One More Day."

  • Undoing Peter's marriage
  • Peter Parker's too old.

Mayday Parker is the first of these problems because the writers introduced the idea of her being kidnapped and the fans immediately were invested. They were wondering when Peter would get his child back and waiting...and waiting...and waiting.

And the writers only started to realize this when they got the thousands of letters asking when they were going to resolve the plot.

Not realizing, they never had intended to solve the plot.

The undoing the Parker's marriage part was because they had intended to permanently replace "Our" Peter Parker (married to Mary Jane) with Ben Reilly and have HIM be the REAL Peter Parker.

And...what now?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#27574: Jun 6th 2023 at 4:23:59 AM

i am not happy with Osborn being brought back

sure we got some good stories with him after the fact

but they've really rung the osborn well dry at this point, and kept going

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27575: Jun 6th 2023 at 4:24:37 AM

[up][up]They hired JMS whose run revitalized Spider-Man.

But ended in OMD thanks to Marvel Editorial.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 6th 2023 at 7:24:54 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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