This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.
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which covers them.
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Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM
The Clone Saga basically was originally a fairly simple story.
Harry Osborn and the Jackal.
It got horribly expanded because Marvel was bankrupt and all of the Spidey-fans were buying it (myself included). Except it got so bad that people who grew up reading Spiderman from 11 to 20 (me again) dropped it.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Then it got retconned into all an elaborate plan by the alive (He Got Better) Norman Osborn as part of his many plans to hurt Peter.
From kidnapping or killing his infant daughter
Faking Aunt May's death and kidnapping her
To all the clone shenanigans
Honestly if Joker and Reverse Flash didn't exist Norman Osborn would be without a doubt the most obsessed villain.
Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 5th 2023 at 9:11:05 AM
I mean, Spider-Man did accidentally give him amnesia and a shit ton of headaches. To a guy like Norman, that would be the ultimate insult. To live again as a weak man without the power of the Goblin.
So the whole Clone Saga plotlines do make a lot of internal logic to Norman. Spider-Man caused him to have an identity crisis, so might as well pay that back a thousand times fold.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"And Spider-Verse Unlimited ends, with Peter, Miles, Cindy, Gwen and Julia (Madame Web) facing a power-stealing spider-foe... who's revealed to be Anansi, the first spider.
So it's not a huge surprise that he's playing the Trickster Mentor and confirming that they actively want to keep the powers, despite the troubles and responsibility they bring.
"I needed to know that you want these lives — that these powers aren't a burden. I want your stories to be more than misery and pain. You all have such strong hearts — I don't want them to break"
(And that's why he'll never be allowed to write a Spider-book).
Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 5th 2023 at 7:22:27 PM
That's not my point
My point is it still follows the continuity of the clone saga, it's the happy ending to it, so for all the people who constantly say it only has one legacy (good Norman Osborn stories, and even THAT's debatable), I say it has another people should appreciate more.
Edited by Zarius on Jun 6th 2023 at 12:33:30 PM
I've mentioned this before but, I still prefer how the 2010 miniseries handled it, wherein it was Harry who was behind everything, having faked his death, and it was a heroic clone of Norman Osborne that sacrificed himself to stop his deranged son.
It played more into the "family" motif that was a reoccurring theme in the Clone Saga. Plus it did a better job of showing how Norman could be a genuinely good person without a.) the influence of the Goblin serum, and b.) the perspective of someone with Norman's memories being able to take a step back and see just how messed up things became because of him.
It really does amaze me how the Clone Saga had so many chances to end up not being so bad and so widely reviled for so long, but they kept rolling Nat 1's.
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I dunno, feels like giving it undue credit when it's something an alternate continuity did with the story by giving the Parkers their daughter back, anything the actual 90s Clone Saga did to introduce Spider-Girl was incidental and in a different continuity.
While Norman Osborn coming back was something the actual story did and it stuck in the main continuity.
I mean, Norman was a pretty shit dad before the formula.
Peter describes him as a bad man made worse for a reason.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 7th 2023 at 3:37:20 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
The 'main continuity' is the lesser of the two I feel. It's just a depressing slog that people simply HAVE to put up with because there's nothing else.
Spider-Girl's timeline may be an alternate, but it has the same history of 616 prior to 1998, so it definitely feels like a more natural continuation, and Spider-Girl lasted longer than the Clone Saga in publication too
I find it amusing that while the Clone Saga has had some great legacies and revised adaptations (Ultimate, Real Saga, Spider-Man: TAS), 616 continues to screw it up even to this day
Edited by Zarius on Jun 6th 2023 at 12:51:04 PM
Well I think what matters is that it was What If that introduced Spider-Girl, not 90s Clone Saga.
Sure Clone Saga was the base, but Spider-Girl was introduced in spite of the Clone Saga, not because of it.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"Nah I would have preferred Osborn stay dead after the death of Gwen Stacy given his stories that came after
Sins Past
Dark Avengers
Red Goblin
Gold Goblin
All ranged from Decent (Dark Avengers) to Erase this from the face of the earth (Sins Past)
Norman really worked best in the Raimi films. Iconic villain in the first movie whose presence is felt in the sequels.
Still not worth retconning Aunt May's original death
Killing/Kidnapping Mayday
Everything about Sins Past
Flash Thompson dying at the end and Norman living despite doing much worse compared to "The Death of Gwen Stacy" just left a bitter taste in my mouth
Thing I will never get about comics is sometimes they can get a villain or characters end perfect but just bring them back to go through the motions. Until maybe a new writer can think of a half decent story.
Edited by FKJ10 on Jun 6th 2023 at 2:32:03 AM
Ehhh, I really enjoyed Goblins at the Gate, Revenge of the Green Goblin and all of Dark Reign.
So Norman coming back is a plus for me at least.
Hell, how he ends Superior was great as well.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 6th 2023 at 5:45:21 PM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"Clone Saga actually went horrifyingly off the rails because of two elements and those two elements are the same ones behind "One More Day."
- Undoing Peter's marriage
- Peter Parker's too old.
Mayday Parker is the first of these problems because the writers introduced the idea of her being kidnapped and the fans immediately were invested. They were wondering when Peter would get his child back and waiting...and waiting...and waiting.
And the writers only started to realize this when they got the thousands of letters asking when they were going to resolve the plot.
Not realizing, they never had intended to solve the plot.
The undoing the Parker's marriage part was because they had intended to permanently replace "Our" Peter Parker (married to Mary Jane) with Ben Reilly and have HIM be the REAL Peter Parker.
And...what now?
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

But Marvel just can't let an idea go without squeezing every chance of profit from it.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"