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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#27001: May 20th 2023 at 11:09:42 AM

Funny enough Peter being a dickish businessman in the science field would have pleased his co creator (and man who's appearance was modeled after) Steve Ditko

Man was a staunch objectivist.

That sounds a bit disheartening. sad

Actually, wait. Wasn't there some fallout between him and Stan Lee? How'd that happen? Ditko wanted to double down on the objectivism, but Stan disagreed?

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#27002: May 20th 2023 at 11:11:54 AM

I remember back in the 90's/early 2000s they tried to kill MJ by having her plane crash. It didn't stick.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27003: May 20th 2023 at 11:16:09 AM

[up][up] Steve Ditko was actually a pretty nice guy TBF.

He just left over pay disputes with Stan Lee. There is a persistent rumor he left because he wanted more objectivism but no, that's false.

And he certainly wasn't an objectivist when working on Spidey otherwise there WOULD BE NO famous mantra about responsibility.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 21st 2023 at 2:16:45 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#27004: May 20th 2023 at 11:20:03 AM

[up][up][up] I think it might have just been a regular-old falling out between the two of them, not unlike what would happen with Jack Kirby a little later.

I have heard rumors that it was specifically Stan wanting the wealthy businessman Norman Osborn (first seen in both identities during the original Lee-Ditko run, but only established as being the same character during Romita Sr.'s tenure) to be the secret identity of the Green Goblin, and Ditko, in line with his die-hard objectivism, hating the idea of a businessman being evil that caused the falling-out, but apparently those rumors aren't true.

[nja]

Edited by TrashJack on May 20th 2023 at 2:20:21 PM

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27005: May 20th 2023 at 11:23:40 AM

[up] Yeah, if you read the original run, Norman Osborn was planted from the start as a shady businessman who had a grudge against Spidey and screwed over Stromm, since Ditko was in charge of artist duties, of course Ditko would know have planned that out.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27006: May 20th 2023 at 1:11:01 PM

The falling out was both. Ditko was used to working on his own without editorial butting in and unpaid royalties.

By issue #25 of the original Spider-Man Ditko was basically doing the comic by himself with notes from Lee. Where Peter's more dickish loner attributes came out reflecting Ditko's own views of "my personal happiness and success > your needs"

Hence stuff like trying to join the F4 then leaving when he finds out they don't pay.

Being cold to his crush Betty Brant after she snubbed him

Breaking up protests as Peter.....

Yeah Peter took a hard turn right if you know what I mean

Editorial didn't like that, Ditko didn't like them and after the royalties didn't come in Ditko left.

Frankly, like Alan Moore, can't help but respect that. The man refused to be creatively stiffled and not given his proper pay

Really Armored Spider-Man from TAS and Superior Spider-Man are actually truer to text of Ditko's vision for the character.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27007: May 20th 2023 at 1:35:43 PM

WHAT? Peter didn't break up any protests, he just didn't join one because he was busy with something else. And he wasn't really cold to Betty at all.

He was still heroic and helped people in those original stories. Did you read them? Just look at the master planner trilogy. A story where Peter sells all his science equipment to pay for his dying aunt's treatment. He wasn't nearly as bad as Otto or Armored Spidey. He's anti-social sure but not malicious or greedy.

And the timeline you suggest is completely wrong, since the whole F4 plotline was in the very first issue but you say the Ditko had control by issue 25?

There's not much objectivist morals in the original run. It's still very "with great power comes great responsibility"

By all reports, Ditko didn't even take on objectivism until long after he left the book.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 20th 2023 at 4:42:51 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#27008: May 20th 2023 at 1:59:28 PM
Thumped: Please see The Rules . This is a warning that this post is the sort of thing that will get you suspended.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27009: May 20th 2023 at 2:01:02 PM

Oh yeah I remember reading about Mr. A

An even more objectivist Question

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27010: May 20th 2023 at 2:01:47 PM

[up][up]Care to summarize that video? It's against the rules.

And have you actually read the original Lee-Ditko run? That protest scene gets taken out of context.

It was the 60s, there weren't much protest against Vietnam at all yet. And Lee portrayed the war as a non-controversial issue. Heck the protest in the story ISN"T about anything at all like Civil Rights. There's no strawmanning.

There's so much persistent rumors about the original stories being objectivist mouthpieces when they clearly aren't.

[up]Ditko did turn objectivist yeah, but the Lee-Ditko stories weren't ANYTHING like that. Classic Pete wasn't anything like a Rand protagonist. And trust me, as someone who was forced to read Atlas Shrugged, I can tell.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 20th 2023 at 5:17:30 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#27011: May 20th 2023 at 2:10:55 PM

The thing about that protest is that Stan Lee was still writing all the dialogue, narration, and thought balloons. Steve Ditko's panels made it clear the protestors were trying to get Peter to join them, and Peter was brushing them off, but it was left to Lee to make up what they were supposed to be protesting, because at that point there was virtually no communication between the two.

Like, you can see that most clearly in an earlier issue where the main baddie is this cat burglar, but Spidey also has a run-in with some goons working for the Master Planner, who'd take center stage the next issue. Except Lee wasn't told that these goons were working for an as-yet unrevealed villain, so when they added words to the panels, it framed these high-tech henchmen as inexplicably working for this random cat burglar.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27012: May 20th 2023 at 2:12:38 PM

What issues are you citing though?

Like people mix up the Lee Ditko run protest scene with the Lee Romita "Protest on Campus" which is from issue 68, when Ditko long left the series.

As for the Master Planner trilogy, no none of the narration implies the Master Planner's goons were working for a cat burglar.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 20th 2023 at 5:14:12 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#27013: May 20th 2023 at 2:32:01 PM

Issue #30, right before the "Master Planner trilogy". It has a bunch of masked henchmen talking among themselves about how they're carrying out "the Cat's" criminal plans. Next issue, we'd see those same henchmen (or at least henchmen in identical costumes) reporting to the Master Planner, and the comic quietly pretends that Cat Burglar thing never happened.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27014: May 20th 2023 at 2:46:39 PM

Ah, now I remember lol.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
MP-Lily Just Some Dog on the Internet from Earth-513 (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Just Some Dog on the Internet
#27015: May 21st 2023 at 11:25:36 AM

A promo comic for the new game dropped the other day. Tarantula's new look is...interesting. He got the Iron Spider treatment, and I'm not sure if I dig it or not.

TheEvilDrBolty Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
#27016: May 21st 2023 at 1:37:50 PM

Re: Ditko's vision for Peter, I like looking at how Dr. Strange was portrayed in the Ditko years for that. Spider-Man, the immature teenager, is vilified by the world and constantly upset about it. Dr. Strange is seen as off-putting or creepy by just about everyone he meets, but he doesn't care because he's here to do good and that's more important than what people think.

Dr. Stange's Ditko-era characterization feels to me like a really fitting theoretical endpoint for Ditko-era Peter Parker. No idea if that was how he saw the characters, but the parallel is interesting.

good-morning Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles from Brazil Since: Nov, 2021
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
#27017: May 21st 2023 at 4:47:23 PM

What is your favorite portrayal of the Spider-Sense across Spidey's appearances in several media? Franky, I've always prefered his sense to be less of a psychic ability that can predict the future and more of a awareness of sudden movement nearby like what real-life spiders somewhat have, which is still very powerful in my opinion, as it makes him pretty much untouchable towards any physical opponent already. Although that's more of a petty nitpick of mine over how having the abilities of a spider made Peter better at playing poker [lol]

Edited by good-morning on May 22nd 2023 at 8:42:34 AM

oh hey how are you doing?
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#27018: May 22nd 2023 at 1:00:46 AM

i prefer it being as obscenely powerful as possible

spider-sense just shouldn't be able to be countered IMO

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27019: May 22nd 2023 at 1:14:30 AM

[up] I'd tend to agree.

I like it as a warning of danger rather than movement, so that it also warns Spider-folk about things like swinging into invisible lethal force fields or cutting the wrong wire when defusing a bomb.

The dramatic tension comes from the heroes' physical limits - you may know the shot/blow is coming, but can you get out of the way? - and Spidey's willingness to put himself to put himself in the line of fire to save others.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#27020: May 22nd 2023 at 3:59:47 AM

I keep forgetting the in-universe logic for his Spider-sense.

Is it supposed to be psychic?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#27021: May 22nd 2023 at 6:35:30 AM

This is a question I have to ask?

Do marvel editors think people want Peter to suffer? Like yes the idea of Spider-Man is that well he gets beat down he Will always rise up again and no I don't think everything should be fine all the time either for him. But it seems like they go out of their way to make him miserable in a way that goes even more than the main theme that he picks himself up from it?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27022: May 22nd 2023 at 6:45:35 AM

[up] I don't mind absolutely horrible things happening to Peter and his life mid-arc (sorry, Peter). As you say, that's just how stories work, and a big part of his appeal.

But I do want a more positive arc ending - a little bittersweet is fine, but there should usually be some sort of victory and resolution.

When you've got a three-year mega arc, that element can sometimes seem to get lost. Because it's a very long journey to that payoff.

Edited by Mrph1 on May 22nd 2023 at 2:46:19 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27023: May 22nd 2023 at 7:53:37 AM

Yeah. Peter needs some victories to balance out the suffering.

That's why his big moment during the old Master Planner Arc resonated so strongly.

After all, he lifted an impossible weight, foiled Doc Ock, saved his Aunt, and got a good price for his pictures from Jameson. It's the moments like that that make the suffering palatable, because eventually, he overcomes it.

This is vital. This cannot be forgotten.

One Strip! One Strip!
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#27024: May 22nd 2023 at 8:05:03 AM

[up] Yep.

If I wanted that I'd be reading the Book of Job, not Spider-Man.

TheEvilDrBolty Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
#27025: May 22nd 2023 at 9:40:55 AM

I think there's this editorial mindset that has warped what Spider-Man is about. It feels like there's a conviction that the character's core appeal is that he's monstrously unlucky and bad things happen to him and he's always short of happiness. Either that, or that he's the original teenaged superhero and should reflect that even as an adult.

But I think it's just as accurate to say that the appeal of Spider-Man was more rooted in real world concerns intruding upon superhero tropes. The classic Silver Age stuff tends to feel less like Peter is miserable all the time, and more like his superhero life and his civilian life have intertwined problems that make his civilian life harder. It's not like the world is out to get him, it's just that the world is complicated and winning a superhero fight still leaves him with a lot of living to figure out.

Just seems like you can reframe the same text to have a different core meaning, and that possibility's been dashed by decades of editors deciding that a specific core meaning is the correct one.


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