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Spider-Man General Discussion

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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#26551: Apr 23rd 2023 at 4:13:34 AM

Yeah, it's an inconsistent mess, and unbearable to read due to Otto's constant dodging of responsibility.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26552: Apr 23rd 2023 at 4:14:32 AM

Oh I forgot to even mention how it required every other character to be extremely stupid not to realize something was wrong...

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#26553: Apr 23rd 2023 at 4:20:55 AM

Except for Charlie cuz OC.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26554: Apr 23rd 2023 at 4:24:42 AM

Except Carlie Cooper. Uggjhhhh....

I enjoyed Superior Spider-Man mostly on an ironic level and I could enjoy Spider-Ock as a Villain Protagonist.

He's fun to watch in a way that's similar to Light Yagami. But everything else is a mess.

Half the time Spider-Ock is talking like Doc Ock, using Doc Ock, technology, even outfitting his new suit with Doc Ock like spider arms, and NO ONE notices anything that's up. Sure they suspect he's out of sorts, but is "Doc Ock replacing Spider-Man" really such an out there possibility given all the wacky shit that happened?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#26555: Apr 23rd 2023 at 5:27:42 AM

When you think about it, Wonder Woman and Captain America probably have the best stories about the main hero being replaced by an antihero substitute because the writers aren't as enamored of the replacement. In fact, Wonder Woman has done this story twice, once in the 80s just a few years before DC's first reboot and again in the 90s. It was even more explicit the second time, with characters in-universe frequently comparing Artemis to Diana in the negative.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26556: Apr 23rd 2023 at 5:30:08 AM

Yeah, Dan Slott was too much in Doc Ock's corner to really turn against him, and with how it's portrayed as a tragedy, I suspect part of him was rooting for Ock more than Peter.

It's a phenomena, I've observed with how writers who write villain protagonists tend to get enamored with them as time goes on, like Hideo Kojima, and Big Boss, or the Death Note anime staff with Light Yagami.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#26557: Apr 23rd 2023 at 5:49:54 AM

I don't think it's always a case of being enamored of the villain. I think some writers just take it for granted that the audience will be on the hero's side. Therefore, they don't actually have to put much or any effort into convincing them.

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#26558: Apr 23rd 2023 at 5:50:13 AM

The different between him and these two is that at least Kojima gave Big Boss a proper good reason.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26559: Apr 23rd 2023 at 5:51:46 AM

I mean sure Big Boss had a reason, but he was still a madman who wanted to plunge the world into eternal war just so he and his men could enjoy it and have a purpose.

He's just a more charismatic version of the Major.

Kojima kind of just, forgot to show that part in Big Boss's story when MGSV was a thing. And he has been on record to say that he enjoys writing Naked Snake more than Solid Snake.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 23rd 2023 at 8:52:43 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26561: Apr 23rd 2023 at 6:06:35 AM

To keep this on Doc Ock, I just feel all the other writers did a better job of writing him than Dan Slott.

Particularly Christos Cage since Spider-Ock actually goes through actual character development and is put to task for his previous actions. Particularly by Anna.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26562: Apr 23rd 2023 at 6:19:03 AM

I've heard the same thing of Silk as well... and Spider-verse

It's the cycle of Slott

He uses someone else's idea and makes it worse -> someone uses his idea and makes it better -> repeat

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#26563: Apr 23rd 2023 at 6:20:51 AM

He had three whole entire ideas for Silk: lady spider person important for plot reasons, incompetent, horned up for specifically Peter Parker

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26564: Apr 23rd 2023 at 6:21:52 AM

Slott can write good when he applies himself to concepts of his that aren't awful, like Renew your vows.

But the dude tends to favor shock value. Such as Spider-Boy.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26565: Apr 23rd 2023 at 6:23:05 AM

But following the trend, if somebody else writes Spider-Boy we might get a good character!

How exciting

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26566: Apr 23rd 2023 at 6:24:48 AM

I mean, there are those hilarious memes.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26567: Apr 23rd 2023 at 9:38:01 AM

"Writer becomes enamored with their favorite villain to the point that they arguably forget they're a villain" is something that comes up every once in a while. In addition to Slott and Doc Ock, Jim Starlin and Thanos and Geoff Johns and Sinestro are two other commonly-cited cases.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#26568: Apr 23rd 2023 at 9:42:33 AM

I at least understand Starlin's attachment to Thanos since he created him. I never got what Johns ever saw in Sinestro that made him want to turn the guy into the DC equivalent of Dr. Doom.

TheEvilDrBolty Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
#26569: Apr 23rd 2023 at 1:44:57 PM

I think Johns just does it with major villains in general (see: Black Adam and the Rogues), Sinestro just took off to that degree due to being attached to the generally very successful Johns GL run that became a centerpiece of the DCU.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#26570: Apr 23rd 2023 at 2:26:00 PM

In terms of manga examples, there's Hao from Shaman King a genocidal wizard Hitler maniac who wants to butcher humanity but the author wound up so enamored with him cause of misanthropic beliefs that Hao eventually wins the entire series.

The sequel is even worse. As the prior Shaman King who has a problem with Hao is portrayed as an even worse monster so to keep Hao sympathetic.

But the degrees the author went to keep Hao sympathetic winds up breaking the setting, cause the previous Shaman King was the creator of capitalism and is the reason why the world is so awful....... despite Hao blaming humans for destroying the world. Meaning everything wrong isn't the fault of humans but a Shaman despite the manga constantly going on about how "no Shaman is inherently evil"

It's fucking ridiculous man

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 23rd 2023 at 4:02:29 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#26571: Apr 23rd 2023 at 4:00:36 PM

Ugh, that's a thing.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#26572: Apr 23rd 2023 at 4:08:27 PM

[up][up] TIL wizards cause economic problems. Good to know!

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#26573: Apr 23rd 2023 at 7:09:36 PM

Yeah Hao is a pretty good a example of a bad attempt at a tragic villain.

He is intended to be sympathetic because he has a sad origin, specifically a dead mom, because he's a Shaman, and this random tagalong kid who has no character other than being a cute kid following Hao.

But in practice he is a murderous smug bigot. He's needlessly cruel and murderous, executing every every Shaman he fights against in the tournament despite a non-lethal KO being all thats needed to win a fight. He's also a total hypocrite, considering his tragedy stems from a dead parent he has no problem orphaning people, murdering Lyserg's parents without remorse simply because they turned down joining his crusade and murdering the sole survivor a Shaman Native American tribe he genocided just to steal their God-spirit for no reason than just because.

It be like if in Mutant terms there's a character who's a vile remorseless serial killer, but we are intended to sympathize with him cause he's a Mutant than anything resembling redeemable characteristics.

Even Doctor Doom has more standards and the capacity to being nice.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 23rd 2023 at 7:38:09 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26574: Apr 23rd 2023 at 7:25:09 PM

Man, I could bring all this up to the politics in media thread.

Heck, Venom is a positive example of writers and fans getting too enamored with a villain.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#26575: Apr 23rd 2023 at 7:31:13 PM

It happened surprisingly fast in Venom's case.

After a couple of appearance of 'oh boy, here I go killing again! =D =D' he started going 'aw I hate that I had to murder innocent prison guards to get out and kill Spider-Man. I am absolutely opposed to killing any innocents =( '

And then they introduced Carnage so there'd be a goo monster that was less of a bummer about murdering so frequently.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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