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This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.

  • Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
  • Spider-Man 'family' books are on-topic (as are their own crossovers, guest appearances etc.) - e.g. Spider-Man 2099, Miles Morales, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Venom, Carnage, Black Cat, Red Goblin and Spider-Verse.
  • Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread which covers them.

Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.

Discussions that are only about Spider-Man adaptations in other media (films, video games etc.) are off-topic, but discussing the differences between the adaptations and the original comics is fine - as long as spoilers for the adaptations are tagged.

Please follow the spoiler policy rules - tag spoilers for the latest issues, for any previews or content leaks, and for off-topic comics. When including spoiler tags, try to write so that tropers can make an informed decision before viewing them (e.g. which series and issue will they spoil?).

     Original Thread OP 
Since everyone likes talking about him. I know little about him(Ironically,I got nearly all I know about him from a Batman thread),but he's apparently important so I made this thread. Enjoy.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM

Tsuzurao (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#26076: Mar 8th 2023 at 9:06:26 AM

@windleopard, previous page.

It's a shorthand for "netorare", a Japanese term that basically means 'to have one's lover stolen'. Such works often put a lot of emphasis on emotionally degrading the partner who is being cuckold, further beyond just the emotional pain tied to the victim's lover having sex with another person.

You can see the Netorare Genre page for further details.

Edited by Tsuzurao on Mar 8th 2023 at 12:07:14 PM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#26077: Mar 9th 2023 at 6:49:16 AM

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12966307980A80182800&page=1043#comment-26066

I ended up ripping the bandaid and read ASM 21 so most of you guys wouldn't have to.

Full disclosure: I might not have said it out loud, but man, I freaking knew that MJ's new family wasn't going to be perfect. Not only is Paul a chickenshit in both combat and parenting, but Owen is a brat and Stephanie is either dense or a troll. It's hard to tell if she's honestly asking or just asking a dumb question just to tick everyone off. (And I'm sorry if that comes off as mean. I have a part-time job as an assistant in a jujutsu school and I kinda have to deal with kids like Owen and Stephanie.)

Now! Onto the comic:

  • After a compare/contrast of how Peter and MJ start their days (MJ clearly has it worse, someone save her already), we see the tornado.
  • Right when MJ says "HE CAME BACK!", we cut to one year earlier when in Ryker's Island, Ben Rabin is in the process of a creepy-ass ritual.
  • Rabin kills his last sacrifice and bingo-bango, it turns out he really was the guy that appeared in front of Peter and MJ at the end of the Beyond arc.
  • Rabin calls Peter the "sun-blooded clown-priest" and that his death will bring about the end of days. Peter insists he doesn't remember Rabin.
  • Peter seizes Rabin, but he gets Worf'd. MJ grabs MJ, but Peter un-worfs himself.
  • Peter is able to suit up as Spider-Man and fight Rabin outside. After Spidey gets some licks in, Rabin does something to him and we see flashbacks of Spidey and Wolverine fighting what look like cultists and other weird stuff (probably from the BND era), including Wayeb', the Mayan god of mischief.
  • Spider-Man remembers Rabin and the latter claims that after the former banished Wayeb', the latter was robbed of the chance to be Wayeb's emissary. So Rabin is getting revenge.
  • Rabin marks Spidey for "vengeance" and MJ for "sacrifice" and Spidey and MJ are warped to a hellish NYC with a freaky dragon thingy. To be continued.

So it looks like the arc that finally answers everything will be a flashback one and then the arc after will be the immediate resolution. And sure enough, this feels like we should've had this interwoven with the present story. Like as a back-up or something. We still don't know the deal with Paul (aka Chickenshit McUseless) and the rugrats, but I guess that will come soon enough now. Interestingly, during his palm to chest thing with Spider-Man, Rabin says stuff like "Your time is short, the end is near. Darkness fakes all you hold dear." Perhaps foreshadowing the truth about Peter and MJ's circumstances in the present? And how soon can someone break Rabin's jaw? Because goddamn it, he's an asshole.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Mar 9th 2023 at 9:51:15 AM

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#26078: Mar 9th 2023 at 7:56:56 AM

I'm usually on the ball with remembering old stories, but I did not remember any of the stuff they flashed back to in this issue. My BND era knowledge is, like, Mr. Negative, the spider tracer killings, and that's about it.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26079: Mar 9th 2023 at 7:58:02 AM

What even was the Spider-Tracer killings anyway?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
knightstorm Since: Feb, 2022
#26080: Mar 9th 2023 at 5:19:55 PM

[up][up][up]And just as a reminder...Wells said that Paul is supposed to be "likable".tongue

Edited by knightstorm on Mar 9th 2023 at 5:20:15 AM

Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26081: Mar 10th 2023 at 12:19:02 AM

Mary Jane ending up with a chaotic family life is such a Downer Ending for her character, and deliberate on Marvel's end because we're so accustomed to those universes of Peter giving her a dream family life where both of them are amazing parents.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26082: Mar 10th 2023 at 12:47:22 AM

Plus, MJ comes from a broken home herself.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26083: Mar 10th 2023 at 1:05:06 AM

[up] Yeah, that was kind of my point.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#26084: Mar 10th 2023 at 1:26:30 AM

Just adding to it.

Man, I just need some MJ bonding with Mayday or Annie fluff.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26085: Mar 10th 2023 at 3:55:20 AM

[up] I need more Marvel Infinity Mayday content for sure. That Stephanie Williams story was adorable, nice to see someone treat the MC 2 universe with some respect again, though the hardcore Spider-Girl fans were harshly critical of it due to some continuity errors. I looked the other way when those happened, because years have passed since we last saw the universe like that and it gives you that feeling that things can shift and happen when you're not always looking.

Also it just carries on Peter's happy ending like it was never disrupted by Slott or Spider-Verse, so yay.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#26086: Mar 10th 2023 at 3:58:46 AM

[up] And we get a Noir story next week. I am cautiously optimistic. With the emphasis on the cautious.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#26087: Mar 10th 2023 at 5:41:39 AM

And just as a reminder...Wells said that Paul is supposed to be "likable".tongue

Ugh, not a good look for Wells there. And yet, a small part of me is hoping against hope that Nick Lowe and Marvel forced him to say that.

And hey, all this stuff about Rabin marking MJ for sacrifice, I'm wondering what if Peter's Very Bad Thing turns out to be Rabin forced him into a sadistic choice between sacrificing MJ or sacrificing millions to avert the return of Wayeb' and Peter chose MJ? Thinking about it, that's a pretty good way to get everyone against you. (Paul and the kids are still an anomaly, but it's a start.)

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Mar 10th 2023 at 8:49:27 AM

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#26088: Mar 10th 2023 at 4:37:36 PM

Why do I get the feeling the stuff being said about the scene with MJ and her family is a bad-faith reading of what was intended to be a cute and funny bit about kids sometimes being a hassle? And it's just being interpreted as "proof" of how "toxic" MJ's family situation because dedication to the Spider-Marriage makes any story that goes against its return automatically terrible?

'Cause, like, "MJ has a hard time getting her family to do something" sounds like it's meant to be read the same as countless other stories with scenes of parents having a tough time getting their kids to do something. Or like stories real parents tell of having tough times getting their kids to do something.

I'm not reading the book. So I can't comment on the quality of the writing. Maybe the scene failed at its intended goal. But just from the description of it here, I am very confident in assuming the intent was, "Ha, kids sure can be a hassle sometimes, right?"

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26089: Mar 10th 2023 at 4:45:30 PM

I just read it, and it doesn't really come across as comedic but it's definitely being blown out of proportion.

The children are being difficult. That's children for you. And Paul actually helps here - not sure why he's being called a chickenshit.

Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#26090: Mar 10th 2023 at 5:05:29 PM

because dedication to the Spider-Marriage makes any story that goes against its return automatically terrible

Edited by Perseus on Mar 11th 2023 at 12:05:35 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26091: Mar 10th 2023 at 6:08:54 PM

well that is objectively true

Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26092: Mar 11th 2023 at 12:00:22 AM

[up][up] I don't think almost swearing in front of your kids qualifies as 'helpful', the whole scene he just lets the kids walk all over him and annoys MJ. The first real instance of the family functioning together and it's largely dysfunction.

It doesn't matter if this is 'typical' of domestic life, you're supposed to be showing us that life with the Watsons justifies MJ being away from Peter and being content with a loving family, and they're not showing us that. Everything from making the kids obnoxious and stupid to the husband losing control and the mother wishing she were anywhere but there does not make the reader appreciate the family, but instead makes them want to will them out of existence.

We've seen MJ raise kids in alternate universes and it's nothing like this.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26093: Mar 11th 2023 at 12:03:45 AM

That's not the part I was calling helpful, the fact that he was able to get the kids moving at least is what MJ thanked him for.

Nearly swearing in front of children is such a minor slip up and he caught himself. It's not worth mentioning accept to attempt to make Paul look worse by taking it out of context (he wasn't going to swear to his kids, he was about to swear because he forgot something).

Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26094: Mar 11th 2023 at 12:04:52 AM

[up] MJ 'thanking' Paul was sarcasm. She was commenting on how useless he was being up to that point.

Edited by Zarius on Mar 11th 2023 at 12:05:24 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26095: Mar 11th 2023 at 12:19:50 AM

I don't read it that way. Usually the dialogue would stress certain words to indicate sarcasm or tone, but it's written entirely neutrally.

Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26096: Mar 11th 2023 at 12:38:36 AM

[up] The way the art depicts her posture when she delivers the line does more to indicate it's sarcasm, especially in the context of the panel. Paul's snacks are set upon by the kid, he stands by and lets them do it, MJ looks at him arms folded and a scowl on her face, saying "thankyou" like it was "thanks for nothing" because now the snacks are gone and there's nothing for the kids at the park.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#26097: Mar 11th 2023 at 1:32:48 AM

Dude, if Wells had shown MJ's family situation as being perfect and idyllic, you'd be criticizing that, instead. I don't even need to see any panels to be certain that your reading of it is the most bad-faith reading of it possible.

As for stories of MJ with other kids, my argument would be that those stories chose not to show the annoying sides of parenthood because the kids were the protagonists of those stories.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26098: Mar 11th 2023 at 2:52:22 AM

[up] I wouldn't have liked MJ being happier with Paul and the kids, yes, but I would not criticise it if they were shown to be functional. It just feels like, with the context of everything we've been given, it's either a deliberate intent to have us root for their removal or it's a Relationship Writing Fumble of epic proportions.

Wouldn't it be better for the drama if we were given a good impression of the family? Instead, no, we're shown right off the bat it's not idealistic, so where's the investment? Why would MJ reject Peter for this? We just want MJ out of there quicker. She's not enjoying herself, we're not enjoying ourselves.

And there were times Annie was pretty annoying in the early days of Renew Your Vows and you never saw Peter or MJ react like this

MJ/Black Cat this week was a bit better, with MJ asserting her life doesn't revolve around Peter and being happy for Felicia and Spidey and then kicking butt and giving Felicia a warm hug after. That's the kind of writing that was missing from the book up to that point and I loved it, even if, ideally, I didn't like what MJ said about Peter in it. It got me invested in MJ and Felicia's friendship again and I'm glad it wasn't damaged by relationship drama.

Edited by Zarius on Mar 11th 2023 at 3:06:28 AM

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#26099: Mar 11th 2023 at 3:34:38 AM

Went searching. Found the page in question. Aaaaand . . . it looks to me like it's basically meant as a gag. Owen's a bit of a brat, the horrors, the horrors. Has it been a running theme that MJ is miserable with the kids? Or is this the first time she's been shown to get annoyed with them?

Anyway, what readers should really be concerned about is how frigging huge those kids' heads are. Holy shit, those are enormous heads. JR Jr on art, right? Might be a good idea to keep that dude away from drawing kids. Because wow. Send those kids to Krakoa, because they've gotta be mutants.

The Black Cat/MJ story is Jed Mac Kay, right? Dude doesn't seem to miss. I see a lot of praise for him.

Edited by Tiamatty on Mar 11th 2023 at 6:36:00 AM

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Zarius Since: Nov, 2012
#26100: Mar 11th 2023 at 3:52:08 AM

[up] Jed's great, he's very much the guy who brought Felicia well and truly into the 21st century and I consider him a bit of a spiritual father to her, all his Black Cat series are great reads and he does a good job convincing you the Cat can break away from Spider-Man.

His one-shot of the MJ/Black Cat partnership in still considered the best issue of the Beyond era.


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