This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.
- Apart from the main Marvel Universe titles, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Man "What If?" stories, crossovers, guest appearances in other books, Alternate Universe tales and things like Marvel's manga adaptations are all on-topic here.
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- Characters and comics that originated in Spider-Man but are no longer directly connected to the spider-franchise (e.g. Punisher, Silver Sable) are not on-topic, unless you're discussing historical connections and crossovers. If in doubt, check before you write a long post. If this isn't the right place, there's a more general Marvel Comics thread
which covers them.
Technically, Marvel's Infinity Comics (and their predecessors, Infinite Comics) are webcomics, not comic books, but it's fine to talk about their Spider-Man stories here.
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Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM
Yea, that was when the Man Behind The Curtain revealed itself—they felt like they'd plateaued and couldn't go on without a reset.
The Protomen enhanced my life.Marvel promises May's issues of Amazing Spider-Man
will be the most shocking since the death of Gwen Stacy
"This change in storyline also led to the increase in prominence of Luke Cage and Mary Jane Watson, the creation of the Punisher, and Green Goblin's status as Spider-Man's main enemy going forward."
The latter is kinda funny to think about given Norman died and stayed dead for 20-ish years in the same story; it was Harry who became the Goblin after.
The Protomen enhanced my life.> Marvel promises May's issues of Amazing Spider-Man will be the most shocking since the death of Gwen Stacy
Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Feb 13th 2023 at 4:37:01 AM
Any attempts at "most shocking" peaked in 90s when Aunt May died and that didn't last, and OMD (the real "last shocking change") essentially killed the essence of the character and guaranteed that almost nothing counts going forward because it's essentially an alternate reality, and even then it walks back on all it's shocking changes all the time.
Maybe the shocking twist will be all the friends we made along the way.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.So... Paul is really Mephisto?
Paul is really Peter, and Peter has been Mephisto all along?
Paul, MJ and the kids are all S.H.I.E.L.D. LMDs and the real MJ is off in space as the new herald of Galactus?
I mean, I've heard worse ideas...
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 13th 2023 at 10:12:56 AM
I think that was said more about his graduate studies, given that the changes feel very superficial: he's still attending university, he gets a better job at the daily globe, but he's still working as a photographer for a newspaper. He gets a new circle of friends, one of which is a blonde woman who has the same haughty response to Peter that Gwen did. This was also shortly after they prevented him from graduating in the first place due to a missed credit, and quickly relented on that due to fan outcry, so it does appear there was an effort to keep things changing too much.
However... I don't call this the illusion of change. Frankly, there was still change, even if they're deliberately keeping things familiar. Seeing Peter move from High School to University to Grad School involves personal achievement, and is a logical progression for him. Same for moving into a better job - the dynamics change, even if the job itself isn't different, and it's nice to see that progression. Also: for the most part, Peter still retains his old friends, and characters like Jameson and Robbie still have parts in the story when Peter's at the Daily Globe, so it's not like they get replaced by facsimiles. And even when new friends are introduced, Peter's dynamic changes, he becomes more mature and more accepted by his peers (especially shown when dealing with older characters, like Flash).
I think the Spider-man comics showed you can have actual growth and change, in smaller ways, without needing to irrevocably shake up the status quo every time. Things like Aunt May dying, getting married, having a child, losing Gwen - those are all big changes for him. But even outside of those events, he still felt like he was having constant progress forward (at least we're I'm at in the 80s, and what I know of future issues).
It's when they start reverting changes that it shows that he can't progress. And I think the smaller, more constant changes have also stopped mattering both because of the reversal of large changes and because the book has lost the idea of forward progress. He keeps going back to work as a freelancer for Jameson specifically, getting better jobs but then losing them. He gets a science job at the Tricorp Foundation in the 90s, then the eerily similar Horizon Labs in Slott's run, now working for OsCorp... the same beats happening in a cycle, and not having a lasting impact on the character. He acts like a manchild, feeling like he never had the development he had over the course of the comics.
Parker Industries is especially bad for this.
Flash keeps going back to asking like his high school self, MJ and Peter go back to dating and then get broken up, Black Cat is all over the place, etc... it's the fact that nothing has an impact and can just be tossed out, even on the smaller level, that makes me feel like change doesn't matter in Spider-man (or a lot of marvel comics).
There's a funny bit that I remember this post made comparing Wally West and Peter.
Meanwhile, even though editorial went in a different direction for awhile, the Flash comics have given us a Wally West that is happy, restored his marriage and kids, and yes, he is still relatable. Heck, even Lois and Clark have a strong marriage (with some kink even!) that remains a good storytelling device and they have not one but now three kids.
Counting my blessings being a DC fan. :)
Which granted DC has plenty of issues with heroes in relationships, but at least Wally's married status actually came back and he got to have kids within main canon
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
It's largely interpreted from the way Romita Jr draws him, making him look a bit sus, plus that flashback they have of him punching Peter out in front of MJ. And there was that indication he was very controlling of MJ during the hellfire gala issues.
If you read the new script guide to Spider-Man that came out, Wells apparently wanted people to like Paul, rofl
"But he didn't *look* purple - how was I to know?"
Must admit, I was also wondering how the timing aligns to the end of Aaron's very long Avengers arc, where the time travel and alternate world chaos may just change Mephisto's status quo.
Taking Mephisto off the board in that book and upturning the OMD fallout because he's suddenly been Ret-Goned would be hilarious, but also an Ass Pull unless it's foreshadowed in Spider-books.

Yeah but OMD was the breaking point for the illusion of change.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"