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RedM Geek Extraordinaire Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Geek Extraordinaire
Apr 25th 2019 at 8:15:20 AM

The Allies knew that people were being rounded into concentration camps, but they didnít know the full extent of what was happening to the prisoners until they liberated the camps. At least thatís my understanding.

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Apr 25th 2019 at 8:15:40 AM

No it didn't. But then even Ultimate Marvel comics didn't acknowledge it. The whole point of Red Skull and HYDRA as a comic threat in World War II is that they exist for Captain America to fight them during World War II and feel like he achieved something, while not doing anything against Hitler's genocide. I do know that the comics hint that Logan and Cap played a part in liberating the camp that Kid Magneto was in, which we saw in the X-Men: Evolution cartoon (said episode by the way was my first exposure to Captain America). The cartoon episode is a wash because obviously you can't realistically show what those camps looked like on a kids TV show. OTOH Magneto is stated to have been interred in Auschwitz-Birkenau which historically was freed by the Red Army, so it's a wash. The reason Cap can get away with this baggage, was that he originated as a propaganda created Pre-Pearl Harbor by Jewish artists, so he gets a pass for the same reason that Chaplin's Great Dictator movie does.

MCU has generally always focused on a kind of four-quad entertainment. It has to since it depends a lot on the Chinese Market, so you know the Ancient One is now a Celtic androgynous woman instead of Tibetan.

Apr 25th 2019 at 8:25:43 AM

As i understand it, part of the reason why they replaced the Nazis for Hydra in Captain America the First Avenger was for merchandising, Disney could sell toys like Hydra tanks, planes and Red Skull action figures ETC but Disney can't sell actual fascist toys based on the Nazis. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, but i find it believable that the family friendly minded higher ups do have a say in movie making, like Iron Man 3 was supposed to be based on Demon in a bottle but Execs objected because kids would be watching and RDJ did not want to revisit an addiction mindset. Also toys do make up a large part of the MCU pie.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 25th 2019 at 8:27:16 AM

Apr 25th 2019 at 8:34:36 AM

That's true. Also Red Skull is the leader of Hydra, and Hydra has a Skull face so it was a good direction to take. I mean it's better than Ultimate Marvel which said that the Nazis or huge chunks of them were aliens, and that's even worse. The whole point of the Nazis is that they were human beings. As I said the MCU is politically quite middle-of-the-road on the surface, only by metaphor and optics and style, are deeper stuff communicated. Remember that you can get wires confused if you aren't careful. Take A New Hope, the medal ceremony at the end is modeled on Triumph of the Will but the problem is that the medal ceremony features the good guys so Lucas appropriates Nazi imagery to celebrate the heroes. I mean is it intentional subversion, is it Decon-Recon Switch, i.e. yeah the rebels can bling and trick up a ceremony just as much as the Nazis can.

I wonder if the MCU will introduce Swarm in the upcoming Spider-Man movies. An undead Nazi made up of hundreds of sentient bees.

Apr 25th 2019 at 8:40:44 AM

With how they handled Hydra, he probably won't be a Nazi if he does appear in the films.

Bocaj Funny, but not helpful from Here Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny, but not helpful
Apr 25th 2019 at 8:54:47 AM

Do you mean Iron Man 2? It had some elements of Demon In A Bottle including irresponsible drunken armor operation

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Apr 25th 2019 at 9:21:45 AM

No i mean Iron Man 3, while Iron Man 2 had elements, 3 would have been more overt on Tony's alcoholism but it was canned. I think the MCU can adopt the Swarm with the Nazi aspect because he's so absurd they can get away with it.

Bocaj Funny, but not helpful from Here Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny, but not helpful
Apr 25th 2019 at 9:24:46 AM

Itíd be weird to have all the crumbs of Demon in a bottle and then do it on the next movie instead

I think the ptsd angle worked better all things considered

My original fictions and Essential Avengers liveblog
Apr 25th 2019 at 9:27:24 AM

Well yeah, it did. You know, speaking off, i'm seeing Endgame in a couple of hours, so i'm signing out for a while. I just hope Spider-Man gets an awesome comeback.

Apr 25th 2019 at 9:36:15 AM

I am seeing it also in the next five hours.

I am just posting to pass time, and diligently dodging spoilers and succeeding so far (fingers crossed).

HandsomeRob Return of the Gangsta Bear! from Moopet Theatre Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
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CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
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Apr 25th 2019 at 9:53:09 AM

1. Well the Allies DID stop Nazism and Captain America in universe did prevent Hydra from conquering the world. So there's no reason why we shouldn't think he fought actual Nazis too.

2. Also, a lot of the Marvel comic book staff actually were WW 2 veterans. Stan Lee actually made posters for the military during the war as Private Stan Lee.

3. The Allies knew Jews had been deported but their victim's fates were a secret. There's many stories of the absolute horror and revulsion soldiers had when they finally liberated camps.

But yes, a lot of Peter's guilt is actually TORTUROUS and that's a really dark part of the Spider-Mythos. He blames himself for what happened and sabotages any happiness he gets.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 25th 2019 at 9:55:57 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Apr 25th 2019 at 10:03:32 AM

Yeah, Lee and others all signed up though Lee didn't see field service unlike Kirby. Jack Kirby was a field reconnaissance draughtsman who drew up plans on the battlefield at considerable risk to his life. Steve Ditko was in high school during the war, but in 1945 just when stuff was wrapping up, he became a reservist and spent years stationed in what would ultimately become for some forty years, West Germany. During that time he drew up comics for army newspapers and he ultimately entered the School of Visual Arts on the GI Bill. Much like Ayn Rand and the social security checks she collected, our objectivist pal Ditko was a beneficiary of a government program. Of the three, Ditko was easily the most educated when he started working at Marvel, which is all kinds of ironic/hilarious.

The actual connection of comics creators to World War II is among the reasons I don't have time for anti-American British people like Garth Ennis and Mark Millar. Ennis has printed endless comics trashing Captain America as an insult to The Real Heroes while also being weirdly nostalgic about The British Empire, all the while ignoring the context in which he originated. And Millar, a Scotsman, is no different. Both of them are talented certainly and write well (Millar's best superhero work in my view is Marvel Knights Spider-Man) but man are they ignorant.

But yes, a lot of Peter's guilt is actually TORTUROUS and that's a really dark part of the Spider-Mythos. He blames himself for what happened and sabotages any happiness he gets.

The thing is Peter should blame himself for Uncle Ben's death. That definitely is his fault. And he should certainly feel some amount of guilt. And that guilt is probably heightened the happier he gets because he knows it comes at the expense of someone else. Similar to Reed Richards who is always going to feel guilty about living the American Dream while Ben Grimm is condemned to be a rock golem all thanks to him.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:06:13 AM

Apr 26th 2019 at 2:42:26 AM

[up][up] If we go by the first issue Ben being there was partially Sue's fault when she called him a coward. :P

Zarius Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Apr 26th 2019 at 4:53:16 AM

As of next week's Marvel Team-Up#2

Kamala and Peter now know each other's identities

Apr 26th 2019 at 11:28:33 AM

Saw Endgame. Look out, here comes the Spider-Man. Okay, despite my constant gripes about MCU Peter and Tony, I legit am a Iron Man fan, so the death while numbed because of all the predictions, was genuinely touching. Of course Tony having a happy married life was a death sentence in Marvel. My entire cinema clapped when Peter showed up, and I swear the same kids who cried when Peter died, cheered when Perer showed up from the portal. Overall a touching movie, and a great send off to the first generation, ignoring how creepy Steve's ending actually is.

Apr 26th 2019 at 2:02:21 PM

Probably not the best thread to discuss Endgame in.

Apr 26th 2019 at 7:54:00 PM

Ehh this thread was discussing MCU, i think it'll be better once Far from home kicks in.

Apr 27th 2019 at 5:33:05 AM

I continue to be unimpressed with Spider-Man in the MCU.

In Endgame, spider-man's suit fights for him. The one Tony gave him. He might as well not have superpowers if they continue to do this. Still I got to say that the downplaying of Ben in favour of Stark makes sense with the way the finale plays out. Seeing that repeat is great though I can't wait for the backlash when people find out that tom holland cried more than Tobey did.

Apr 27th 2019 at 11:25:33 AM

I will say this in a slight defense of Tom Holland Spider-Man, he makes sense in the MCU at least, i mean the suit does represent Tony's influence on the next generation of superheroes and in the context of the Infinity duology, his relationship with Tony is an emotional core. Still Tom Holland didn't have his face zoomed in like Tobey Maguire's face, so he should be fine from backlash.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 27th 2019 at 11:25:49 AM

Apr 27th 2019 at 12:30:05 PM

Again, aren't people just a little bit tired of hearing about Uncle Ben after four movies and two animated series focused so much on him?

Apr 27th 2019 at 12:53:00 PM

There is a middle area between being mentioned too much and not mentioned at all and if the promise was we would get Peter who was his own hero with his own reasons then that would be okay. Instead we get Iron Boy and that is not an acceptable trade for a Spidey in a shared universe.

Apr 27th 2019 at 1:06:54 PM

Peter didn't become a hero in the MCU because of Tony and he was already his own hero when he made his MCU debut in Civil War.

Apr 27th 2019 at 1:09:48 PM

Wasn't it retconned that the little kid at the end of Iron Man 2 was Peter? Either way he holds a lot of respect for him and cites him as an inspiration, if not the only inspiration.


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