This thread's for the Spider-Man comics and spin-offs, whether they're decades old or brand new.
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Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 10th 2023 at 10:58:13 AM
Has anyone else noticed that a lot of Spider-Man’s rouges gallery have been changed to make them more sympathetic recently? Lizard and Norman fully reformed, Doc Ock is back and forth, Vulture has his niece, Rhino is friends with Miles, Tombstone has his daughter, Sandman has a bunch of different things, Mysteriowas friends with MJ for a bit, are Electro, Chameleon and Hobgoblin the only rouges gallery members left who are just evil assholes?
Vulture may love his granddaughter, but he's also a deconstruction of the Boyfriend-Blocking Dad who is willing to murder the boy she's currently dating (Miles) because he believes that nothing good can come out of dating a Spider-Man. Tombstone isn't that sympathetic either. His daughter has Chronic Backstabbing Disorder and tried to supplant him as the ruler of New York's gangs back in Gang War (2023).
Rhino is also one of the on-again, off-again villains, but writers have generally portrayed him as far more reasonable and less unhinged than most of Spidey's other rogues. He's Only in It for the Money, not the carnage. Sandman ahs been in the same, being a good guy on hard times or a bad guy who relishes in tormenting Spidey Depending on the Writer. He was even a probationary member of the Avengers for a short while.
Edited by reppuzan on Jul 10th 2025 at 9:39:45 AM
I wonder if some writers are trying to say that it's Peter himself (and his tendency to relentlessly troll some of his villains) that makes them worse.
Miles getting along with Rhino would indicate the former to me.
Like, considering how baked in it is that Peter always screws up, it wouldn't surprise me if they would add to that by showing that he ruins the lives of his villains (more than they do themselves) by existing.
One Strip! One Strip!I always found the idea of Miles being treated better by the older rogues as kind of character shilling for him.
Like Rhino aside most of these guys are pretty psychopathic and career villains, so it doesn't really make sense why they would care to treat Miles better.
Edited by slimcoder on Jul 11th 2025 at 7:00:43 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."It might just be an easy way to dunk on Peter.
I think other heroes like Miles more as well.
It may also be that Miles just isn't as smart mouthed. There could be legitimate reasons, too.
One Strip! One Strip!Also, Sandman being sympathetic if not One Good Day away from reforming has been a thing since the 70's, to the point where in the 80's he became an Avenger.
The only reason why now he's even still evil sometimes is because in the 90's a writer said "no, he's a classic villain, he's supposed to be eeeevil!" and had some other villain (the FF villain Wizard, I think?) brainwash him into being a bad guy again with it never being fixed. Writers after tend to balance him being bad with him still getting that same sympathetic writing even so.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 11th 2025 at 7:55:42 AM
That was Byrne, who felt similarly about Magneto, something Chris Claremont was against.
Someone once said that besides Doom, who was allowed to keep a sense of honor, Byrne just liked having villains as purely evil as possible, which seems to be a motif from what I've read written by him.
Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.John Bryne is not a good Spider-Man writer.
It's still hilarious to me that he firmly believes Doc Ock is Spider-Man's greatest enemy, and the Green Goblin is just a poser, but is too incompetent to actually pull that off, and his version of Ock is just annoying.
Plus it was Bryne who started that trend of Norman Osborn being the Big Bad by virtue of being responsible for several of Spider-Man's rogues that adaptations would use.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"I’ve heard that Sandman was re heeled back without telling the Avengers writer, Larry Hama, which pissed him off because he had plans for reserve member Sandman. Might have been why he quit barely any time into his run. If so that makes him another writer that quit Avengers because a character was yoinked away from him. Walt Simonson quit barely any time into his Avengers run because Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman were taken away from him.
Avengers had a hard time keeping consistent writers in that era. Until Bob Harras took over but he’s his own can of worms.
Anyway, I think Spider-Man was a reservist around the same time. Reservist is how I likes my Spider-Man Avenger.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI've always wanted a Spidey / Flash crossover where Sandman and Captain Cold team up or at least meet. The two of them are cut from the same "Noble Demon who can sometimes be counted on to go Anti-Hero" cloth.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 11th 2025 at 9:02:54 AM
Which Flash?
And as of now, which Spider-Man?
(Ok, I know full well you mean Peter, but the Which Flash question is legitimate)
One Strip! One Strip!Yeah! That's what I meant.
Why would I say Marvel Flash? He's still kinda dead right now anyway.....no wait. He came back in all New Venom. I forgot.
But yeah. We talking Barry Allen or Wally West?
One Strip! One Strip!Captain Cold would suggest Barry Allin, though I think the Flash most people like to pair with Peter Parker is Wally West.
Mister Negative might be one of the better Marvel villains for screwing up The Flash, if you aren't there to pit the villains against one another. Super speed, great! Fall under Mind Manipulation faster! Sandman isn't terrible, with his more sympathetic qualities, but what about the opposite? Which Flash villain works for Spider-Man?
Buldogue's lawyerIMHO the best Flash to team up with Peter is... Jay Garrick. Not only because he's less powerful than Barry or Wally and easier to fit into a Spider-Man story but because he's basically Super-Speed Uncle Ben.
Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.I briefly considered Jay, but thought he was an odd choice.
Now you've made me wish I had mentioned him.
One Strip! One Strip!

Isn't it a thing that people have somehow made magic into technology?
Kinda like how in the old Mega Man cartoon, Dr. Light made an anti-curse machine.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"