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CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#251: Jun 29th 2011 at 5:24:28 PM

What would you recommend taking out to provide room for said dragons?

Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#252: Jun 29th 2011 at 5:25:09 PM

See my edit. Take out the fatties that don't have any synergy with either your dragons of Karrthus himself.

Off the top of my head, Apocalypse Hydra, Hornet Queen, Mosstodon, and Spiritmonger can go. Bloodthorn Taunter also seems unnecessary since your general already gives shit haste.

edited 29th Jun '11 5:27:57 PM by Nyktos

I guess it is.
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#253: Jun 29th 2011 at 5:36:46 PM

Hmm.

I'll keep the Spellbreaker Behemoth, since it gives Karrthus immunity to Hinder, Spell Crumple, and the like, but I probably have enough trample to cut the Mosstodon in favour of Flameblast Dragon, and Dragon Broodmother instead of Spearbreaker Behemoth. I like Charnelhoard Wurm's recursion and Spiritmonger's size and regeneration (plus, if I'd had half a brain, I might have been able to beat Haven with it - colour changing and Vow of Malice was an epic combo that went completely over my head and smack against the wall). Avatar of Woe becomes Hoard-Smelter Dragon, too - repeatable shatter on a 5/5 body sounds useful. Gleancrawler can probably go too - I like the look of Imperial Hellkite.

Edit: Damn post editing.

You're right - Hydra isn't fast enough. Replaced with a Fierce Empath. Bloodthorn Taunter becomes the nicely flexible Brutaliser Exarch. Hornet Queen becomes Jugan, the Rising Star. I could probably use some more mana of any colour, so replace...uh...Contested Cliffs really won't pull its weight, so switch it for a Darksteel Ingot.

Any other ideas welcome.

edited 29th Jun '11 5:42:17 PM by CountDorku

Haven Planescape Hijack Since: Jan, 2001
Planescape Hijack
#254: Jun 29th 2011 at 5:41:10 PM

More ramp is definitely a good idea. On top of Far Wanderings, how about Explosive Vegetation, Khalni Heart Expedition, maybe Sprouting Vines? (I've always wanted to see how that last one does in EDH—I'm thinking of putting that, Sakura-Tribe Scout, Skyshroud Ranger and Terrain Generator into my real life deck, but I'm not sure how well any of those would work on their own compared to what I'd be replacing them with.) More artifact mana is also worth checking out: Mana Vault and Thran Dynamo come to mind to start with. (For colored mana, Darksteel Ingot is a classic, but I think since you're running green that spot might be better off with a landgrabbing sorcery)

Not sure what to replace them with. You could probably switch out a random land for Mana Vault and be fairly safe, to start with.

edited 29th Jun '11 5:41:31 PM by Haven

Productivity is for people without internet connections. -Count Dorku
Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#255: Jun 29th 2011 at 5:43:33 PM

@Count Dorku: Spiritmonger is good for sure, but as far as I'm concerned, the reason to play a Karrthus deck is to play terrifying hasty fatties.

I guess it is.
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#256: Jun 29th 2011 at 5:50:04 PM

That and stealing everyone else's bloody great flying lizards.

Hmm. Sprouting Vines might be good at instant speed; replace the Ingot before I have time to actually edit it in. Replace Spiritmonger with S-Tribe Scout; both it and ranger are good, but Scout's can be done at instant speed. (Elf synergy isn't exactly useful in this deck.) Rix Maadi doesn't really wow me in this deck, so out it goes in favour of Terrain Generator.

I like Explosive Veg. I think I'll use it instead of the Farhaven Elf.

I'll post an updated list and factor in any other suggestions later - it's not raining at the moment, so I need to go walk the dogs. Thanks for the help.

edited 29th Jun '11 5:58:52 PM by CountDorku

Haven Planescape Hijack Since: Jan, 2001
Planescape Hijack
#257: Jun 29th 2011 at 6:09:59 PM

I know they're good, but I think you could use spots for better things than Infiltration Lens or Lightning Greaves. The Greaves don't help as much since your best guys will usually already be hasty thanks to Karrthus, and Infiltration Lens is alright but it's either situational evasion or situational card draw. I'd suggest replacing it with either something that gives trample (Loxodon Warhammer maybe?) or something that draws cards (Soul's Majesty, which could be beautiful). You could take out one to fit in Moltensteel Dragon, which I recently found out is absolutely murderous in EDH.

Productivity is for people without internet connections. -Count Dorku
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#258: Jun 29th 2011 at 6:47:05 PM

Greaves for Soul's Majesty sounds good. Infiltration Lens for Loxie Warhammer...well, OK, ya talked me into it.

Updated list!

General

Artifacts

Creatures

Enchantments

Instants

Planeswalkers

Sorcery

Lands

Any other suggestions or anyone willing to help me test it?

Haven Planescape Hijack Since: Jan, 2001
Planescape Hijack
#259: Jun 29th 2011 at 6:55:03 PM

I'm game, as usual. I just made a few changes myself.

Productivity is for people without internet connections. -Count Dorku
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#260: Jun 29th 2011 at 6:55:57 PM

Okay then.

I've made the room.

Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#261: Jun 30th 2011 at 10:34:02 AM

Looks pretty nice, now. One card that I didn't run in my Karrthus build but planned on putting in if I ever rebuilt it was Patriarch's Bidding. I'm not sure how good it'll end up being, but 3BB to get back all your dead dragons while not necessarily giving everyone else back their fatties seems good.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning behind cutting Greaves. Yeah, the haste is often redundant, but shroud is equally important in using that card. You could try Champion's Helm instead, maybe.

I guess it is.
accaris Since: Aug, 2021
#262: Jun 30th 2011 at 12:23:09 PM

You're also missing a couple of the most powerful dragons in the game, namely Dragon Tyrant and Scourge of Kher Ridges.

For ramp, I would advise against weenies like Thunderscape Familiar, Frontier Guide, Krosan Drover, Sakura-Tribe Scout, and Birds of Paradise, and focus more on ramp that improves your board position and isn't so fragile. Stuff like Urza's Incubator, Explosive Vegetation, Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic.

All those creatures that "do something to creatures with power 5 or greater." With the exception of maybe drumhunter, those are all pretty weak and are taking up valuable slots in the deck. You don't get enough value out of them, and they should probably all be artifacts or enchantments that stick on the board and give you permanent value, like Loxodon Warhammer, Akroma's Memorial, Greater Good, Coat of Arms, etc.

I also noticed you're not using some of the most powerful utility cards in Karrthus's colors: Decimate, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed, Tooth and Nail, Genesis Wave, Green Sun's Zenith, Into the Core.

edited 30th Jun '11 12:24:39 PM by accaris

Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#263: Jun 30th 2011 at 12:32:45 PM

I don't much like Dragon Tyrant, but yeah, those are pretty good suggestions.

I guess it is.
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#264: Jun 30th 2011 at 3:41:56 PM

[up][up][up]&[up][up] Hmm.

Dragon Tyrant is too dependent on red mana for my tastes.

Scourge of Kher Ridges, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed, Urza's Incubator and Champion's Helm are good ideas. Hmm. What to cut...I'll drop the Godtracker for Scourge.

I like the ramp weenies. Put another way, they're better than spending the first five to eight turns sitting around waiting to get enough land. I'll cut the Sakura Elder for Pernicious Deed and Birds for Urza's Incubator. I intend to keep Thunder Familiar and Frontier Guide, though. S-Tribe Scout becomes Darksteel Ingot.

I'll admit Decimate is powerful, but I don't like it very much. It just strikes me as too situational. Don't get me wrong, it's devastating, but without at least one of each to target, it can't be cast. (It's also misnamed unless there are exactly ten creatures, artifacts, enchantments and lands on the field.)

As for the power 5+ stuff, I'm keeping Where Ancients Tread for repeatable spot removal, Drumhunter for cards, and Spellbreaker to hose hinder. Those are all I have left with the removal of Godtracker.

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#265: Jun 30th 2011 at 5:08:15 PM

Does anyone have advice on Black control for Standard?

I started with the observation that Massacre Wurm and Phylactery Lich would be crazy fun to play, using the indestructible Darksteel Axe as the phylactery. These are Standard-legal, so I tried to build a mono-Black Standard deck around them. Here's what I've got so far:

Land

24x Swamp

Creatures

4x Black Knight

4x Phylactery Lich

4x Massacre Wurm

Artifacts

4x Darksteel Axe

Other Spells

4x Go for the Throat to control opponent's fatties

4x Black Sun's Zenith to sweep the board when Massacre Wurm can't do it

4x Diabolic Tutor to tutor, duh

This idea especially needs help as far as mana curve and draw engine.

edited 30th Jun '11 5:08:49 PM by Rottweiler

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#266: Jun 30th 2011 at 5:22:12 PM

Hmm.

Despite both being black, Lich and Wurm (they're cops) don't work together very well. I'd build a deck around one or the other, rather than both. Actually, I'd build a regular black deck and use Wurm as a nasty finisher rather than a keynote card.

Thoughts on Lich:

  • Lashwrithe is a very nasty artifact. It starts out as a 4-mana grounded Nightmare and can be thrown around to other creatures for 2 mana or 4 life. Indeed, living weapon stuff (Bonehoard, Batterskull, Flayer Husk and so on) would work nicely with this deck.
  • Life's Finale could be better than BSZ, since it destroys all creatures - but Lich is indestructible. It also lets you send a few fatties to the grave without waiting for your opponent to summon them first. (Note: this could be less helpful against a reanimation deck.)
  • Liquimetal Coating will allow you to turn one Lich into the phylactery for another Lich. Very handy.

moberemk Dread Lord from Canada Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Dread Lord
#267: Jun 30th 2011 at 5:22:58 PM

I'm thinking throw in some discard effects (Inquisition of Kozilek, Psychic Miasma, et al) so you can control the opponent's hand. Also a good idea: one or two less Massacre Wurm cards. It's big and expensive, and having four-of is going to make for some dead hands on occasion.

EDIT: Also, Phyrexian Obliterator. Cannot believe I forgot Phyrexian Obliterator—that thing is awesome, period. Also Corrupt is good in monoblack, but it's a little expensive.

edited 30th Jun '11 5:26:08 PM by moberemk

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Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#268: Jun 30th 2011 at 6:06:55 PM

REVISED

Land

22x Swamp

Creatures

4x Death Cultist

4x Phylactery Lich

2x Phyrexian Obliterator

2x Massacre Wurm

Artifacts

4x Darksteel Axe

2x Liquimetal Coating

Other Spells

4x Inquisition of Kozilek

4x Go for the Throat

4x Black Sun's Zenith

(Control)

4x Sign in Blood

4x Diabolic Tutor

(Draw and search)

Death Cultists replaced Black Knights to get another 1-drop, which I can sacrifice ahead of dropping a Black Sun's Zenith to take gain 1 life from opponent and gain 1 (Life's Finale is too high on the mana curve). 2 Massacre Wurms replaced by Obliterators. Hand control and draw engine added. Dorku's idea of adding Liquimetal Coating so a Lich can be another Lich's phylactery is too hilarious not to try.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#269: Jun 30th 2011 at 6:16:07 PM

It's not my idea - it's been suggested on and off since Coating was originally spoiled.

Still hilarious, though.

Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#270: Jun 30th 2011 at 6:16:49 PM

@Count Dorku:

I'll cut the Sakura Elder for Pernicious Deed and Birds for Urza's Incubator. I intend to keep Thunder Familiar and Frontier Guide, though. S-Tribe Scout becomes Darksteel Ingot
Sakura-Tribe Elder should stay in, because it's land-based ramp, which is generally the superior kind of ramp (on account of lands getting blown up less often than other types). The Familiar is the worse card, for sure.

edited 30th Jun '11 6:17:02 PM by Nyktos

I guess it is.
CountDorku Behold my legal acumen! from the depths of insanity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Behold my legal acumen!
#271: Jun 30th 2011 at 6:20:16 PM

[up] Good point. And I can sac it in response to it being targeted or someone using mass removal. OK, it's in, Thunder's out.

Fifthman Mad STEM Practitioner from Communist Pacifica Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Mad STEM Practitioner
#272: Jun 30th 2011 at 7:33:58 PM

Rotty:

Go up to 25 land if you're running Massacre Wurm. Ideally, you'd be playing 3 or even 4 Phyrexian Obliterators, but that tends to be prohibitively expensive. Black Sun's Zenith should be able to bail you out of your aggro pits.

What are the Death Cultists for? Worried about aggro? One life rarely matters in Constructed Magic - you're better off just playing more disruption, or even more lands. I'd go up to 25, maybe 24 land for this deck, so pull out the Death Cultists and toss in another removal spell and three swamps. Perhaps Dismember?

Diversify your removal. Tempered Steel aggro is a popular budget choice, and it's entirely made of artifact creatures. Your Go For the Throat will be useless. There's Dismember, Doom Blade, and, if you're desperate, Grasp of Darkness, so there's no need to run the risk of having your entire point removal suite sit dead in your hand.

Toss out Diabolic Tutor - it just leaves you open to so many threats. If you're worried about having artifacts for your Lich, run Mortarpods or Flayer Husks - they'll at least stall aggro until your Lich hits the field.

If you're playing a control deck, your mana curve doesn't really matter as much as it does for an aggro deck. Go for the Throat, Doom Blade, or Dismember will kill almost anything regardless of the victim's mana cost. You just need to make sure that you have enough removal for your opponent's threats.

If it were my choice, I'd make these changes: Remove:

  • 4 Diabolic Tutor
  • 4 Death Cultist
  • 2 Go for the Throat
  • Massacre Wurm
Add:
  • 2 Swamp
  • 1 Phyrexian Obliterator
  • 2 Dismember
  • 1 Doom Blade
  • 4 Flayer Husk
  • 1 Duress
  • 1 Despise

edited 30th Jun '11 7:34:32 PM by Fifthman

Zudak Since: Dec, 1969
#273: Jun 30th 2011 at 8:02:15 PM


This post was thumped by the Shillelagh of Whackingness

Zudak Since: Dec, 1969
#274: Jul 4th 2011 at 12:43:41 PM

  • 2 Seaside Citadel
  • 4 Birds of Paradise
  • 2 Bringer of the White Dawn
  • 4 Fist of Suns
  • 4 Etched Monstrosity
  • 2 Legacy Weapon
  • 4 Noble Hierarch
  • 2 Ancient Ziggurat
  • 4 Coalition Relic
  • 4 Glimmervoid
  • 4 Tree of Tales
  • 2 Akroma's Memorial
  • 4 Arcbound Wanderer
  • 2 Suncrusher
  • 2 Solarion
  • 2 Vivid Grove
  • 2 Crystal Quarry
  • 2 Jungle Shrine
  • 2 Memnarch
  • 4 Llanowar Elves
  • 2 Ancient Den

Gelzo Gerald Zosewater from the vault Since: Oct, 2009
Gerald Zosewater
#275: Jul 4th 2011 at 12:45:48 PM

First thing that comes to mind is that Fist of Suns looks like a bad 4-of since you don't get anything out of drawing more than one.

Ruining everything forever.

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