See my edit. Take out the fatties that don't have any synergy with either your dragons of Karrthus himself.
Off the top of my head, Apocalypse Hydra, Hornet Queen, Mosstodon, and Spiritmonger can go. Bloodthorn Taunter also seems unnecessary since your general already gives shit haste.
edited 29th Jun '11 5:27:57 PM by Nyktos
I guess it is.Hmm.
I'll keep the Spellbreaker Behemoth, since it gives Karrthus immunity to Hinder, Spell Crumple, and the like, but I probably have enough trample to cut the Mosstodon in favour of Flameblast Dragon, and Dragon Broodmother instead of Spearbreaker Behemoth. I like Charnelhoard Wurm's recursion and Spiritmonger's size and regeneration (plus, if I'd had half a brain, I might have been able to beat Haven with it - colour changing and Vow of Malice was an epic combo that went completely over my head and smack against the wall). Avatar of Woe becomes Hoard-Smelter Dragon, too - repeatable shatter on a 5/5 body sounds useful. Gleancrawler can probably go too - I like the look of Imperial Hellkite.
Edit: Damn post editing.
You're right - Hydra isn't fast enough. Replaced with a Fierce Empath. Bloodthorn Taunter becomes the nicely flexible Brutaliser Exarch. Hornet Queen becomes Jugan, the Rising Star. I could probably use some more mana of any colour, so replace...uh...Contested Cliffs really won't pull its weight, so switch it for a Darksteel Ingot.
Any other ideas welcome.
edited 29th Jun '11 5:42:17 PM by CountDorku
Planescape Hijack
More ramp is definitely a good idea. On top of Far Wanderings, how about Explosive Vegetation
, Khalni Heart Expedition
, maybe Sprouting Vines
? (I've always wanted to see how that last one does in EDH—I'm thinking of putting that, Sakura-Tribe Scout
, Skyshroud Ranger
and Terrain Generator
into my real life deck, but I'm not sure how well any of those would work on their own compared to what I'd be replacing them with.) More artifact mana is also worth checking out: Mana Vault
and Thran Dynamo
come to mind to start with. (For colored mana, Darksteel Ingot
is a classic, but I think since you're running green that spot might be better off with a landgrabbing sorcery)
Not sure what to replace them with. You could probably switch out a random land for Mana Vault and be fairly safe, to start with.
edited 29th Jun '11 5:41:31 PM by Haven
Productivity is for people without internet connections. -Count DorkuThat and stealing everyone else's bloody great flying lizards.
Hmm. Sprouting Vines might be good at instant speed; replace the Ingot before I have time to actually edit it in. Replace Spiritmonger with S-Tribe Scout; both it and ranger are good, but Scout's can be done at instant speed. (Elf synergy isn't exactly useful in this deck.) Rix Maadi doesn't really wow me in this deck, so out it goes in favour of Terrain Generator.
I like Explosive Veg. I think I'll use it instead of the Farhaven Elf.
I'll post an updated list and factor in any other suggestions later - it's not raining at the moment, so I need to go walk the dogs. Thanks for the help.
edited 29th Jun '11 5:58:52 PM by CountDorku
Planescape Hijack
I know they're good, but I think you could use spots for better things than Infiltration Lens or Lightning Greaves. The Greaves don't help as much since your best guys will usually already be hasty thanks to Karrthus, and Infiltration Lens is alright but it's either situational evasion or situational card draw. I'd suggest replacing it with either something that gives trample (Loxodon Warhammer
maybe?) or something that draws cards (Soul's Majesty
, which could be beautiful). You could take out one to fit in Moltensteel Dragon
, which I recently found out is absolutely murderous in EDH.
Greaves for Soul's Majesty sounds good. Infiltration Lens for Loxie Warhammer...well, OK, ya talked me into it.
Updated list!
General
Artifacts
- Loxodon Warhammer
- Mana Vault
(which produces true hilarity in 1997-vintage Duels games - the computer doesn't seem to realise you can pay to untap it)
- Sol Ring
Creatures
- Birds of Paradise
- Bladewing the Risen
- Bogardan Hellkite
- Broodmate Dragon
- Brutalizer Exarch
- Charnelhoard Wurm
- Darigaaz, the Igniter
- Dragon Broodmother
- Dragonmaster Outcast
- Dragonspeaker Shaman
- Drumhunter
- Eternal Witness
- Fierce Empath
- Flameblast Dragon
- Frontier Guide
- Garruk's Packleader
- Godtracker of Jund
- Hellkite Overlord
- Hoard-Smelter Dragon
- Jugan, the Rising Star
- Kilnmouth Dragon
- Knollspine Dragon
- Krosan Drover
- Malfegor
- Mana-Charged Dragon
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
- Sakura-Tribe Scout
- Scavenging Ooze
- Solemn Simulacrum
- Spellbreaker Behemoth
- Steel Hellkite
- Thunderscape Familiar
- Yavimaya Elder
Enchantments
- Crucible of Fire
- Dragon Roost
- Grave Pact
- Necrogenesis
- Pain Magnification
(should be nasty in multiplayer since it doesn't say you have to control the source)
- Phyrexian Arena
- Vow of Lightning
- Vow of Malice
- Vow of Wildness
- Where Ancients Tread
Instants
Planeswalkers
Sorcery
- Barter in Blood
- Cultivate
- Death by Dragons
- Demonic Tutor
- Explosive Vegetation
- Far Wanderings
- Innocent Blood
- Lavalanche
- Living Death
- Soul's Majesty
Lands
- Akoum Refuge
- Ancient Ziggurat
- Blood Crypt
- Command Tower
- Darigaaz's Caldera
- Evolving Wilds
- Forbidden Orchard
- 5x Forest
- Golgari Rot Farm
- Gruul Turf
- Homeward Path
(just in case I come up against, say, Memnarch - I have no intention of triggering it when I've stolen a dozen dragons with Karrthus)
- Jund Panorama
- Kazandu Refuge
- 5x Mountain
- Overgrown Tomb
- Rakdos Carnarium
- Rupture Spire
- Savage Lands
- Shimmering Grotto
- Skarrg, the Rage Pits
- Stomping Ground
- 5x Swamp
- Temple of the False God
- Terrain Generator
- Terra Expanse
Any other suggestions or anyone willing to help me test it?
Looks pretty nice, now. One card that I didn't run in my Karrthus build but planned on putting in if I ever rebuilt it was Patriarch's Bidding
. I'm not sure how good it'll end up being, but 3BB to get back all your dead dragons while not necessarily giving everyone else back their fatties seems good.
Also, I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning behind cutting Greaves. Yeah, the haste is often redundant, but shroud is equally important in using that card. You could try Champion's Helm
instead, maybe.
You're also missing a couple of the most powerful dragons in the game, namely Dragon Tyrant and Scourge of Kher Ridges.
For ramp, I would advise against weenies like Thunderscape Familiar, Frontier Guide, Krosan Drover, Sakura-Tribe Scout, and Birds of Paradise, and focus more on ramp that improves your board position and isn't so fragile. Stuff like Urza's Incubator, Explosive Vegetation, Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic.
All those creatures that "do something to creatures with power 5 or greater." With the exception of maybe drumhunter, those are all pretty weak and are taking up valuable slots in the deck. You don't get enough value out of them, and they should probably all be artifacts or enchantments that stick on the board and give you permanent value, like Loxodon Warhammer, Akroma's Memorial, Greater Good, Coat of Arms, etc.
I also noticed you're not using some of the most powerful utility cards in Karrthus's colors: Decimate, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed, Tooth and Nail, Genesis Wave, Green Sun's Zenith, Into the Core.
edited 30th Jun '11 12:24:39 PM by accaris
![]()
![]()
&![]()
Hmm.
Dragon Tyrant is too dependent on red mana for my tastes.
Scourge of Kher Ridges, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed, Urza's Incubator and Champion's Helm are good ideas. Hmm. What to cut...I'll drop the Godtracker for Scourge.
I like the ramp weenies. Put another way, they're better than spending the first five to eight turns sitting around waiting to get enough land. I'll cut the Sakura Elder for Pernicious Deed and Birds for Urza's Incubator. I intend to keep Thunder Familiar and Frontier Guide, though. S-Tribe Scout becomes Darksteel Ingot.
I'll admit Decimate is powerful, but I don't like it very much. It just strikes me as too situational. Don't get me wrong, it's devastating, but without at least one of each to target, it can't be cast. (It's also misnamed unless there are exactly ten creatures, artifacts, enchantments and lands on the field.)
As for the power 5+ stuff, I'm keeping Where Ancients Tread for repeatable spot removal, Drumhunter for cards, and Spellbreaker to hose hinder. Those are all I have left with the removal of Godtracker.
Does anyone have advice on Black control for Standard?
I started with the observation that Massacre Wurm
and Phylactery Lich
would be crazy fun to play, using the indestructible Darksteel Axe
as the phylactery. These are Standard-legal, so I tried to build a mono-Black Standard deck around them. Here's what I've got so far:
Land
24x Swamp
Creatures
4x Black Knight
4x Phylactery Lich
4x Massacre Wurm
Artifacts
4x Darksteel Axe
Other Spells
4x Go for the Throat to control opponent's fatties
4x Black Sun's Zenith to sweep the board when Massacre Wurm can't do it
4x Diabolic Tutor to tutor, duh
This idea especially needs help as far as mana curve and draw engine.
edited 30th Jun '11 5:08:49 PM by Rottweiler
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. BernardHmm.
Despite both being black, Lich and Wurm (they're cops) don't work together very well. I'd build a deck around one or the other, rather than both. Actually, I'd build a regular black deck and use Wurm as a nasty finisher rather than a keynote card.
Thoughts on Lich:
- Lashwrithe is a very nasty artifact. It starts out as a 4-mana grounded Nightmare and can be thrown around to other creatures for 2 mana or 4 life. Indeed, living weapon stuff (Bonehoard, Batterskull, Flayer Husk and so on) would work nicely with this deck.
- Life's Finale could be better than BSZ, since it destroys all creatures - but Lich is indestructible. It also lets you send a few fatties to the grave without waiting for your opponent to summon them first. (Note: this could be less helpful against a reanimation deck.)
- Liquimetal Coating will allow you to turn one Lich into the phylactery for another Lich. Very handy.
I'm thinking throw in some discard effects (Inquisition of Kozilek, Psychic Miasma, et al) so you can control the opponent's hand. Also a good idea: one or two less Massacre Wurm cards. It's big and expensive, and having four-of is going to make for some dead hands on occasion.
EDIT: Also, Phyrexian Obliterator. Cannot believe I forgot Phyrexian Obliterator—that thing is awesome, period. Also Corrupt is good in monoblack, but it's a little expensive.
edited 30th Jun '11 5:26:08 PM by moberemk
deviantArt | TwitterREVISED
Land
22x Swamp
Creatures
4x Death Cultist
4x Phylactery Lich
2x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Massacre Wurm
Artifacts
4x Darksteel Axe
2x Liquimetal Coating
Other Spells
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Go for the Throat
4x Black Sun's Zenith
(Control)
4x Sign in Blood
4x Diabolic Tutor
(Draw and search)
Death Cultists replaced Black Knights to get another 1-drop, which I can sacrifice ahead of dropping a Black Sun's Zenith to take gain 1 life from opponent and gain 1 (Life's Finale is too high on the mana curve). 2 Massacre Wurms replaced by Obliterators. Hand control and draw engine added. Dorku's idea of adding Liquimetal Coating so a Lich can be another Lich's phylactery is too hilarious not to try.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard@Count Dorku:
edited 30th Jun '11 6:17:02 PM by Nyktos
I guess it is.Rotty:
Go up to 25 land if you're running Massacre Wurm. Ideally, you'd be playing 3 or even 4 Phyrexian Obliterators, but that tends to be prohibitively expensive. Black Sun's Zenith should be able to bail you out of your aggro pits.
What are the Death Cultists for? Worried about aggro? One life rarely matters in Constructed Magic - you're better off just playing more disruption, or even more lands. I'd go up to 25, maybe 24 land for this deck, so pull out the Death Cultists and toss in another removal spell and three swamps. Perhaps Dismember?
Diversify your removal. Tempered Steel aggro is a popular budget choice, and it's entirely made of artifact creatures. Your Go For the Throat will be useless. There's Dismember, Doom Blade, and, if you're desperate, Grasp of Darkness, so there's no need to run the risk of having your entire point removal suite sit dead in your hand.
Toss out Diabolic Tutor - it just leaves you open to so many threats. If you're worried about having artifacts for your Lich, run Mortarpods or Flayer Husks - they'll at least stall aggro until your Lich hits the field.
If you're playing a control deck, your mana curve doesn't really matter as much as it does for an aggro deck. Go for the Throat, Doom Blade, or Dismember will kill almost anything regardless of the victim's mana cost. You just need to make sure that you have enough removal for your opponent's threats.
If it were my choice, I'd make these changes: Remove:
- 4 Diabolic Tutor
- 4 Death Cultist
- 2 Go for the Throat
- Massacre Wurm
- 2 Swamp
- 1 Phyrexian Obliterator
- 2 Dismember
- 1 Doom Blade
- 4 Flayer Husk
- 1 Duress
- 1 Despise
edited 30th Jun '11 7:34:32 PM by Fifthman
- 2 Seaside Citadel
- 4 Birds of Paradise
- 2 Bringer of the White Dawn
- 4 Fist of Suns
- 4 Etched Monstrosity
- 2 Legacy Weapon
- 4 Noble Hierarch
- 2 Ancient Ziggurat
- 4 Coalition Relic
- 4 Glimmervoid
- 4 Tree of Tales
- 2 Akroma's Memorial
- 4 Arcbound Wanderer
- 2 Suncrusher
- 2 Solarion
- 2 Vivid Grove
- 2 Crystal Quarry
- 2 Jungle Shrine
- 2 Memnarch
- 4 Llanowar Elves
- 2 Ancient Den

What would you recommend taking out to provide room for said dragons?