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Misogyny. Misandry, self-imposed Double Standards: Reversed Stupidity

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Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
The Joke-Master
#26: Jan 29th 2011 at 4:32:20 PM

"This is why I think kids must be raised into traditional tribal values before having those values deconstructed and being presented with a more modern outlook. First it teaches them to always keep reasonable doubt on their current beliefs. Second, it allows them to better understand the people who are still attatched to the older beliefs, and be sympathetic to them."

That is easily the single most patronizing statement I've ever read on this site.

"I'm not sure how to really reply to this thread, but.. I hate those people, too, TC. The misogynistic and/or gynophobic men, people who believe vulnerability is terrible.. and.. all that. I hate them."

What would you have men do instead? Embrace weakness and vulnerability? Build a culture of victims and ineffectual losers? To admit weakness is to embrace it. To embrace weakness is to reject the chance to eliminate it. To reject the chance to eliminate weakness is to leave it, festering and growing. It is to reject the possibility of gaining strength, and to reject what strength you already have.

To reject the pursuit of self-improvement is to make the pursuit of failure.

Ardiente I won't kill you. Since: Jan, 2011
I won't kill you.
#27: Jan 29th 2011 at 4:33:02 PM

[up]No offense taken.

Raw was banned. This is another persona. Please treat it as such. The background and the physical person is the same. So is the fundamental character. The personality, on the other hand, hopes to be different. Not a new mask, but a new facet.

Now, what is it about Raw's posts that is difficult to understand, exactly? (I know this is a tough question. Please bear with me here.)

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."
Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Ardiente I won't kill you. Since: Jan, 2011
I won't kill you.
#29: Jan 29th 2011 at 5:29:09 PM

Please specify what you are feeling... interrogative about.

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."
Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#30: Jan 29th 2011 at 5:29:51 PM

So, this is Raw Power deciding to post under a sock puppet?

Hodor
Ardiente I won't kill you. Since: Jan, 2011
I won't kill you.
#31: Jan 29th 2011 at 5:34:57 PM

No, this is Raw Power being dead. That being established, I suggest we return to the topic at hand. Assuming we can agree on what the topic was supposed to be: it appears Raw's intent wasn't as transparent as he thought it was.

"Sweets are good. Sweets are justice."
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#32: Jan 30th 2011 at 12:30:17 AM

To be honest, I just like destroying gender roles and subverting expectations.

I like strong women and meek men. It's nice to see the guys be the moeblob from time to time. And the woman be the strong one. The reverse kind of annoys me. Things full of equal amounts of female and male badass are okay, but the problem I have with them is that the men are always turned up to 11 in terms of "testosterone" while the women are given Most Common Super Power. So while the men only have to look "strong", the women characters HAVE to look sexy. That shows more "objectification" of women in some ways than shows where the entire cast are being cute for the sake of being cute. If them being strong was the most important, they would be portrayed just like the men, but they're given disproportionate Hartman Hips and Buxom, and clothing to show it off more than the male characters. And the male characters always seem to edge out the women. By a lot, even.

I mean, come on, you can think it would be "ewww nasty" to show muscular women, because you're not attracted to muscular women? But who cares? Muscular men don't attract you either, do they? If the men aren't there to be attractive, then neither should the women.

Oh, you know what's really awesome that I like? Male damsels in distress. They're awesome.<3

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#33: Jan 30th 2011 at 1:14:11 AM

To admit weakness is to embrace it.

Except that in order to better yourself, like you argue for, you need to know what parts of you need to be bettered. "The first step is admitting you have a problem", and all that. Perfection is inherently unattainable; everyone is flawed in some way. This doesn't stop you from still striving to be better.

There's also the fact that "weakness" is a subjective trait. One person's weakness is not another's. Why is showing emotion considered weak, since it's entirely possible to be emotional and yet still Get Shit Done?

The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.
DarkDecapodian The Prodigal Returns from the fold Since: Apr, 2009
The Prodigal Returns
#34: Jan 30th 2011 at 1:22:05 AM

@ Ukonkivi: Muscular men aren't fanserviced to the degree of female characters, but they still resemble what most media upholds to be the male standard of attractiveness.

@ Wanderhome: And to ignore your weaknesses is to be blind to their continued growth. But hey, why seek out therapy when you can punch your problems away, right?

[down] It was more of a response to this sentence -

Muscular men don't attract you either, do they?

- which I should have specified, sorry. I'm pretty much in agreement with everything else you said.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:50:06 AM by DarkDecapodian

Aww, did I hurt your widdle fee-fees?
Ukonkivi Over 10,000 dead.:< Since: Aug, 2009
Over 10,000 dead.:<
#35: Jan 30th 2011 at 1:59:01 AM

And that's a completely different issue from being fanservices. The thing these muscular dudes appeal to most is machismo guys who idolize the masculine extremity. Not to say that doesn't appeal to some women who like sort of thing. But that's it's purpose.

On the other hand there is a difference in sexualization. Yes, both are ideals, but like I said, it's the sexualization that's different. What's your point? My point is that they're fanserviced more. Aesthetic standards general is not the area of my point, it's a different issue and area entirely. One that is not more skewed against women, aside from the fact the ideal does seem to advocate male supremacy and dominance.

There's no reason to conflate these two issues. The standards of aesthetic for man and woman offend me both equally(or at least, in most aspects). I don't know why you were throwing that out there, but we don't disagree at all. Unless you mean to say that this representation isn't sexist because of it.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#36: Jan 30th 2011 at 3:34:45 AM

There's nothing wrong with showing emotion. I mean, so what, you feel bad about something and you say so, then you go do something about it. Constantly complaining about something while doing nothing is unhealthy, but just espressing negative emotions isn't.

Be not afraid...
Dynamod -Nudge- from Eagle Land Since: Jan, 2011
-Nudge-
#37: Jan 30th 2011 at 6:42:19 AM

guys who are afraid of women because they are afraid of crossing a line somwhere and getting into legal trouble always bothered me.

also guys who are so focused on their own masculinity that they become a parody of themselves also kind of annoys me.

of course there are female equivalents to these as well, along with the previously mentioned femnazis. then theres girls who hate/fear all guys, because of who they have dated in the past.

what makes me the saddest is that these types of people like to congregate together and share their ideas, getting a skewed view of the whole picture. and then when new members enter their select groups, those ideas propagate. alot of grief could be overcome if we'd just be willing to talk to strangers every now and then, werent afraid of getting into arguments, or just being wrong every now and then. :( oh, if only.

edited 30th Jan '11 6:42:54 AM by Dynamod

Add me on skype! Dynamod1990
neoYTPism Since: May, 2010
#38: Jan 30th 2011 at 8:34:23 AM

"To admit weakness is to embrace it. To embrace weakness is to reject the chance to eliminate it. To reject the chance to eliminate weakness is to leave it, festering and growing. It is to reject the possibility of gaining strength, and to reject what strength you already have." - Wanderhome

What an asinine slippery-slope argument. Frankly, it falls apart in the first sentence; admitting weakness (such that maybe you can do something about it) is embracing it? As opposed to being willfully ignorant with respect to your weakness, which is somehow going to make it go away?

As for the subject at hand, I doubt those dismissive of "misogynists" as a whole are about to suddenly give a damn about the circumstances leading to specific varieties of "misogynistic" feelings. The idea of applying the exact same label to such a wide variety of attitudes not even in agreement with each other suggests that those who do so are probably going to be dismissive of all of them.

Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
The Joke-Master
#39: Jan 30th 2011 at 9:14:11 AM

@ Drakyndra, Dark Decapodian, neo:

By "admitting weakness" I meant the idea of considering oneself as having innate and irreversible limitations, and then expecting others to compensate for one's own lack. I did not mean recognizing your own limitations.

If you are lacking in one area, yes you should recognize it, but then you should improve yourself, not start bitching about it to other people.

InsanityAddict Bromantic Foil from Out of the Left Field Since: Oct, 2009
#40: Jan 30th 2011 at 9:55:32 AM

And recognize in what areas improvements would cost more than the benefits are worth, and accept that. A little venting from time to time is a necessary part of admission of flaws.

edited 30th Jan '11 9:56:52 AM by InsanityAddict

I know what you said, sugar, but 'platonic' still entails a world of ideas.
Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
OnTheOtherHandle Since: Feb, 2010
#42: Jan 30th 2011 at 11:03:01 AM

@Wanderhome: Because sometimes you need someone to listen to you and help you out in becoming a better person.

Also, I'm curious: Does this "never show weakness" apply only to men, or to everyone?

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#43: Jan 30th 2011 at 11:03:35 AM

@Wander:If you attempt to improve yourself in every possible way, you will not have enough time to do anything worthwhile with your perfection.

If you even get there in the first place; more likely you'll just break something.

edited 30th Jan '11 11:03:51 AM by BlackHumor

OnTheOtherHandle Since: Feb, 2010
#44: Jan 30th 2011 at 11:10:22 AM

Also, what is perfection, exactly? What is the ideal person, Wanderhome? I can guarantee your answer won't be the same as mine, and how can you prove that yours is objectively correct?

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."
aishkiz Slayer of Threads from under the stairs Since: Nov, 2010
Slayer of Threads
#45: Jan 30th 2011 at 12:08:37 PM

ultrayellow wrote:

I would agree with that. Action Girl is one of my least favorite tropes. Not because women can't or shouldn't be in the same roles as men, but because there's no Action Boy (or Man, which I guarantee is what we'd come up with if we did do this).

I vaguely recall YKTTW'ing this back when I first joined TV Tropes, and being directed to Action Hero. Which is kind of ... different in a number of respects.

<.<

loni jay wrote:

There's nothing wrong with showing emotion.

Lies! Showing emotion leaves you open to being manipulated by the forces of evil! Every emotion is a vulnerability! Also, you should never fall in love because bad guys will just kidnap your loved one and use him/her as leverage to get a MacGuffin from you before killing him/her anyway. I've learned quite a lot from TV Tropes.

I have devised a most marvelous signature, which this signature line is too narrow to contain.
InsanityAddict Bromantic Foil from Out of the Left Field Since: Oct, 2009
#46: Jan 30th 2011 at 1:38:19 PM

Venting avoids excessive interiorization. One earnest bout of complaining to a friend equals days worth of internal brooding, and might net you some advice or a new perspective to cope with whatever flaw you have in a better way.

I know what you said, sugar, but 'platonic' still entails a world of ideas.
OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#47: Jan 30th 2011 at 1:52:48 PM

I always thought it would be interesting to put one's children through an Ontological Mystery.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
CEOIII C-E-O-3, H-N-I-C from Franklin, PA Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
C-E-O-3, H-N-I-C
#48: Jan 30th 2011 at 10:34:57 PM

I hope you don't have kids. For their sakes.

I'm Charlie Owens, good night and good luck. PSNID: CEOIII 1117
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