Diagonalizing The Matrix
A lot of ideas and questions in the last few pages got very quick answers and resolutions. That sort of things tends to slow down a thread.
As for some of those that didn't- banners behaving oddly should probably be brought up in a Wiki Talk thread and the They Plotted a Perfectly Good Waste thing should probably be brought up in the Trope Repair Shop. We'll probably end up calling Varying Mileage Tropes whatever catches on (I'm sure something will catch on).
edited 1st Feb '11 8:49:09 AM by TripleElation
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
Diagonalizing The Matrix
Separate Banner or Tab, probably not (YMMV works fine for both). Indexes for that and for examples restricted, though, is something we could work out (or find out that we don't want).
edited 1st Feb '11 8:53:45 AM by TripleElation
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate toOne more thing. Eddie never said whether the suggestion in post 17
is theoretically possible. Even if it's not that good an idea for YMMV, I think it could work for Trivia, which doesn't usually reduce the quality of the article.
edited 1st Feb '11 9:49:42 AM by Killomatic
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
Diagonalizing The Matrix
Went to read it. That's way over my head. I'd get into the pros and cons of it, but I have an overwhelming suspicion that the Powers That Be are not going to be keen on that suggestion at all. Audience Reactions back on the main page, in whatever form, does not sit well with the current... Zeitgeist, if you will.
That much is obvious, but for Trivia a show/hide function could be a suitable compromise. If you look at the crowner in that thread right now, much of the character related stuff is being voted down, because people don't want it off the pages. If we go by the guidelines we established here, we'd have to ignore their vote.
Also we could now use "trivia" and "audience reaction" as page types with "subpage" as a flag, so you can do things like "subpage+trivia" or "subpage+YMMV" or whatever.
edited 1st Feb '11 10:21:41 AM by Killomatic
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
Diagonalizing The Matrix
This was tentatively brought up before, but how about we give the YMMV Tropes an index all to themselves?
I'm talking about things like Complete Monster, Continuity Drift, Serial Numbers Filed Off, Game-Breaker and other Tropes That People Argue About. Say about them what you will, but they are certainly not the same class of item as Hate Dumb, Cliché Storm, Seasonal Rot, Holy Shit Quotient and Jumping the Shark.
edited 1st Feb '11 11:34:27 AM by TripleElation
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate toI'm still of the opinion that, if they're actual tropes, then the usage of the trope is what's YMMV, rather than the trope itself. In other words, everyone can agree that Happy Ending is a real trope, but not everyone can agree which endings are happy. Rather than try to label some YMMV and others not (because in that case, the only ones we'd have left on the main namespace would be flat statements of fact, which we want to avoid), I think it's a better idea to use the YMMV tab for mileage that varies for that specific work.
eg, if everyone everywhere forever agrees that a work has a Happy Ending, then it can stay on the main namespace. But if someone comes along and disagrees, then instead of deleting it or adding natter, they can move it to the YMMV tab (along with whatever trope they think fits better, like Bittersweet Ending).
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.@Eternal September: Well, back when YMMV included definitely-always-without-exception-subjective things that we're now calling Audience Reactions, then it was possible to separate those out and give them a label, but they got lumped in with "real tropes that people frequently disagree on". Now that we're separating them, I don't think we need a YMMV banner/index at all (we'll use the Audience Reaction one instead), just the subpage on works pages.
edited 1st Feb '11 12:13:01 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.But that policy could apply both ways - if anyone can move something to YMMV, then logically anyone can return it to the main article as well. That's just a recipe for edit war. Kinda like the the "should character tropes go in the main article as well as the character sheet" debate, which I still think someone should have taken an official standing on rather then leaving people to figure it out themselves, because it's never going to happen.
edited 1st Feb '11 12:14:51 PM by Killomatic
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.Well, the policy would be "if someone moves it to the YMMV page, leave it there" (except in cases of obvious abuse, anyway). If someone says moves "The Hero has Blue Eyes" to YMMV, then they're trolling and that can be moved back. But the rule of thumb would be "in case of edit war, YMMV wins".
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Diagonalizing The Matrix
If we do this, a year later an unhealthily large chunk of the wiki will be on YMMV, most of which will not actually belong there.
I can't back this up with concrete facts, but I have a strong feeling this is true.
edited 1st Feb '11 12:23:04 PM by TripleElation
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate toIt can't be as simple as, "someone disagrees, move to YMMV". We need to distinctly classify things that are and are not YMMV tropes and aggressively preserve the distinction. If someone uses an objective trope in a subjective fashion, it gets dealt with as the situation warrants, by stripping out the YMMV cruft, identifying a more appropriate trope to put the material on, or in the worst case, whacking the troper who can't take the hint.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"How would you handle the Happy Ending example, then? Happy Ending by itself usually isn't a YMMV thing, but in certain instances it's fairly ambiguous whether or not it applies (see Esoteric Happy Ending and Inferred Holocaust). Would we mark Happy Ending YMMV because it's YMMV sometimes? Or would we leave it "objective" and it would stay on the main page of the contested work, because it's not marked YMMV?
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Good question. Really, I think Happy Ending is enough of an omnipresent trope that it's not even worth mentioning in examples lists, kind of like The Hero. If the story has a happy ending, it's usually a specific subtype or is sufficiently generic as to not bear mentioning, and if it doesn't, it would fall under one of the less generic variations like Esoteric Happy Ending, Bittersweet Ending, or even Earn Your Happy Ending.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Diagonalizing The Matrix
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YMMV is not about what people could hypothetically disagree about, it's about what people do disagree about. In the vast majority of cases, we don't have people fighting over whether some ending was a Happy Ending or not.
Any example can be written well and neutrally enough to deter edit warring. Having an example requiring a bit more attention once in a blue moon is something we can afford. We pick a more suitable trope (like Bitter Sweet Ending) or we write: "Your Mileage May Vary as to whether this applies; some fans think A because B and C, other fans think X because Y and Z", and we are done. If push comes to shove we make a special procedure for this exceedingly rare occurance (move to YMMV and put commented-out text in the main page saying not to add the trope because this instance is too controversial even though the trope is usually objective).
Not perfect, of course, and having it go in YMMV would be cleaner, but again, good luck getting the body of tropers to figure out which examples go in YMMV and which don't in an orderly fashion.
edited 1st Feb '11 1:03:20 PM by TripleElation
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this but, the Flame Bait banners are behaving somewhat odd. I was under the impression they were for Darth Wiki stuff, yet according to the list
the Narm subpages (but not the main article) have them. And while the subpages do indeed have the black background, they show no visible banner. Same thing for Wall Banger and So Bad Its Horrible, except the last one actually has a banner on the main article.
Meanwhile, Periphery Hatedom and Hatedom have the banner, while not being in Darth Wiki, or indeed the Flame Bait section of the list, which means there may be more like them scattered around that I don't know about.
Finally, Nightmare Fuel and High Octane Nightmare Fuel subpages, but once again not the main articles, also have the black background, making it look like they are part of Darth Wiki, when they clearly aren't.
If anyone can explain how all this is supposed to work, I'd be very grateful.
edited 31st Jan '11 3:58:33 PM by Killomatic
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.