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$1.50 gas with no carbon emissions?

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2: Jan 28th 2011 at 7:14:39 AM

Impressive, but needs a lot of proving. Also, as with any manmade fuel, the energy in-energy out equation needs to be measured. Still, if the basic facts of the article are correct and not hype, it's a big deal indeed.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Yej (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#3: Jan 28th 2011 at 7:25:26 AM

It's hydrogen, so it's not an energy source so much as an energy store. Unless we have a sudden disposition towards nuclear power, it'll still take electricity to generate.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#4: Jan 28th 2011 at 7:39:44 AM

Objections:

  1. As Fighteer said, we need to be using spending less on energy in making the stuff than it provides in cost.
  2. Hydrogen-based? Does that mean the exhaust will freeze? This could be a problem for drivers in colder climates. Even after those objections though, STILL WANT. This would be great and more power to those who can get it off the ground. It could change the green energy economy....which leads to my last objection:
  3. I have the grim, sinking feeling that the oil lobbies will fight tooth and nail to keep this from getting marketed successfully.

re: electricity - we've had integrated fast reactor nuclear for a while. For those of you not familiar, that's generation IV nuclear tech that actually can reuse >90% of its waste as fuel and produces final waste with a half-life of only a hundred or so years rather than thousands. Using this tech would actually decrease the amount of nuclear waste worldwide as we could burn the existing waste we have for centuries, freeing up all that storage - and the best thing is that these plants can also burn many types of weaponized radioactive elements, which means there'd be a profit motive for nuclear nonproliferation. IFR nuke is not the topic of this thread, but it's worth noting that we have the tech for cheap emissions-free electricity to make this hydride fuel possible. The problem, as always, is not technological capability but political and economic resistance. (For instance, IFR nuke development was killed in the States under Clinton thanks to pressure from the coal lobby; China and Russia are pulling ahead of us in this area.)

edited 28th Jan '11 7:45:52 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#5: Jan 28th 2011 at 7:44:28 AM

The part that impresses me is that they managed to make an ordinary ICE run on hydrogen. Still, I'll believe in hydrogen fuel when I see it.

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#6: Jan 28th 2011 at 8:15:40 AM

“The materials are hydrogen-based, and so when used produce no carbon emissions at the point of use, in a similar way to electric vehicles”, said Voller.

Weasel Words ahoy!

What's this about freezing exhaust?

Lulz at the "it has hydrogen in it!" point is said a few times, like normal hydrocarbons don't.

Assuming it doesn't release something horribly toxic into the atmosphere and it's not subsidized, producing the stuff at $1.50 a gallon (assuming comparable energy density), I'm inclined to say it takes care of the energy balance on it's own. Unless the conversion process is massively wasteful.

Fight smart, not fair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#7: Jan 28th 2011 at 8:22:49 AM

Hydrogen-based fuels produce water as their exhaust, pure and simple, absent contaminants or other byproducts of the combustion process, which are likely to be far cleaner than gasoline emissions no matter how you cut it. I suppose this exhaust could be subject to freezing, just like any other water, but I'm not sure what net effect this would have.

The problem is the production of said fuels and any pollutants produced as a byproduct. The reason fossil fuels are so useful to us is that the energy input has already been taken care of for us by millions of years of natural processes. Synthetic fuels require that the energy going in be supplied by us, which requires the burning of fossil fuels or some other form of energy. Centralization of this process, however, renders it much easier to control pollution. Clean coal plants and even clean fuel oil plants can be built, far more efficiently in terms of economy of scale than "clean automobiles".

edited 28th Jan '11 8:24:57 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#8: Jan 28th 2011 at 8:33:09 AM

Well, I noted that he didn't explicitly state it was hydrogen gas, or a simple hydrogen chain, so I'm assuming there's something else in it. He mentioned that it's a combustion engine at it's got similar combustion characteristics to gasoline, or it's sufficiently adjustable to make no difference. I can go look up the term in a bit.

It's not like exhaust doesn't freeze as is, that's what all that "white smoke" that comes out of the tail pipes in the winter is.

Fight smart, not fair.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#9: Jan 28th 2011 at 10:33:59 AM

Hydrogen combustion makes simple water vapor right? That might be the problem with the ehaust emissions freezing up, but that coudl be simply fixed by making the exhaust pipe shorter so that the gasses can't condense out in time before they exit the car.

If it's hydrogen, then we have a storage problem, too - hydrogen has a nasty habit of leaking out of pretty much whatever containment tank you can think of. But making hydrogen fuel is relatively simple - solar power to crack water into oxygen and hydrogen, right? Green energy to make green fuels, whats not to like? If you're dumping essentially free energy into producing hydrogen, once your startup costs are paid for, it'll be far more efficient. Plus, if you can produce it for cheap, than leakage isnt' such a big deal anymore. The other thing you may have to worry about is that hydrogne combustion doesn't release as much energy as traditional fosile fuels, so you'll have to turbocharge or supercharge the engines to help make more power. Or downsize the car.

Not that I have a problem with turbochargers; just look at my avatar. cool

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10: Jan 28th 2011 at 11:15:41 AM

If they've got a way to make hydrogen fuel work in traditional internal combustion engines, then the power ratio shouldn't be a factor.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#11: Jan 28th 2011 at 11:21:18 AM

Another bonus is that the conbustion process is cleaner. No carbon emissions, = no carbon fouling inside the engine = less wear and tear on the engine over time = longer engine life. No toxic gasses - just have to have a way to keep water vapors from contaiminating the oil in the engine, but that's more or less what the PCV is for anyway, it draws off water vapors from the oil once the oil gets nice and hot. Use some nice synthetic oil and you could probably go a year without an oil change easily.

Plus, no more need for an EGR valve, or a catalytic convertor, or a smog pump, so the emissions system in the car can be simpler and less of a leach on power throughput.

I like it.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#12: Jan 28th 2011 at 11:26:09 AM

The article is a bit rubbish at describing what exactly we are looking at but what popped to my mind is something from years ago which talked about hydrogen storage methods and one being, IIRC, using stuff to store hydrogen in metal hydrides and then when it gets heated up in the engine, it releases it as hydrogen and at the time they were talking about how it works but you have inefficiences from needing to get it hot first and efforts to drive the temperature down.

This does indeed seem to be what the company's webite is talking about especially the use of Ammonia Borane.

The use of beads is also very, um, "not crazy". Things which deal with speeding up reactions often talk about using a bead in which you have a surface full of storage pockets and if you have small beads with a high surface-volume ratio and there's a lot of them such that you have a flowing sand, you get a good catalyst.

Oh and indeed, on their website they say they got the temperature requirement to below 80C which is exactly what I remember reading people saying one would need to aim for.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#13: Jan 28th 2011 at 12:10:48 PM

The only word I caught was hydride and when that didn't bring anything to mind but "has hydrogen", I went ahead and looked it up. It means "has hydrogen". <.<

IIRC, you can already run hydrogen gas through a diesel. I'm not sure if you have to cut it though to make sure it combusts at the proper compression ratio. I think you have to modify the pump mechanism though.

Fight smart, not fair.
jewelleddragon Also known as Katz from Pasadena, CA Since: Apr, 2009
Also known as Katz
#14: Jan 28th 2011 at 1:17:51 PM

FYI: Water vapor is part of regular exhaust, too, so there's no reason to think that hydrogen fuel would have a particularly worse freezing problem (unless the combustion temperature were a lot lower...I should check the CRC...).

CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#15: Jan 28th 2011 at 2:33:51 PM

Water vapor is a greenhouse gas.

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
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#16: Jan 28th 2011 at 2:49:07 PM

I don't think it tends to stay in the atmosphere much though.

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pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#17: Jan 28th 2011 at 3:10:45 PM

^^ Next you'll be telling me not to boil water...? [lol]

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#18: Jan 28th 2011 at 3:45:55 PM

Water vapor is the leading greenhouse gas. So...no it doesn't tend to go away. I don't know what kind of impact water vapor spewing cars might have though.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#19: Jan 28th 2011 at 3:48:16 PM

The planet's surface is like 70% water. Water vapor occurs naturally. We're not making more water by emitting it you know. Saying Water Vapor is the largest contributor to greenhouse gases is a little misleading, I would think.

Rather, at what temperature water remains vaporous is based on how much water is currently in the atmosphere to begin with. To put it another way, it would rain more often.

CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#20: Jan 28th 2011 at 3:56:52 PM

"We're not making more water by emitting it you know."

This statement is, at it's very core. Contradictory.

"Saying Water Vapor is the largest contributor to greenhouse gases is a little misleading, I would think."

Except that...you know. It is. Because it accounts for roughly 40-70% of the contribution to greenhouse gases. Compared to carbon's 10-25% contribution. There's also no garuntee that adding more water vapor to the air will make it rain at all. Since the more water vapor in the air, the hotter it gets, which increases the amount of water the air can suspend. Like a cycle. Rain occurs when sufficient water vapor is present in the air at cool temperatures.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#21: Jan 28th 2011 at 4:00:03 PM

If humans didn't exist, water vapor wouldn't just go away though. The planet has water.

"Water vapor concentrations fluctuate regionally, but human activity does not significantly affect water vapor concentrations except at local scales, such as near irrigated fields. According to the Environmental Health Center of the National Safety Council, water vapor constitutes as much as 2% of the atmosphere" [1]

CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#22: Jan 28th 2011 at 4:19:11 PM

The product being suggested would then convert...hundreds of millions of cars into water vapor spewing vehicles.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#24: Jan 28th 2011 at 4:41:46 PM

My point exactly.

To put it another way, what is it right now that is NOT water vapor, that will eventually become water vapor?

edited 28th Jan '11 4:42:16 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#25: Jan 28th 2011 at 4:47:09 PM

^^ I'd think so. Plus, water cycle needs to be considered. You make more vapor, you get more clouds, which tends to lead to more rain.

So which is worse, Commando - more water vapor, or continuing to produce lots of carbon dioxide and other stuff that comes out of fossile fuel consumption?

Going all electric sounds nice, but unless the electricity is being produced by green renewable sources, all we're doing is pushing the carbon genreators furthur from the consumer. Yes, an electric car looks cool, but if I'm plugging it into a wall socket that ends up being traced back to a coal-fired power plant, where's the emissions reduction?

edited 28th Jan '11 4:47:26 PM by pvtnum11

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

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