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RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#11151: Mar 6th 2012 at 5:08:05 PM

Our best bet is, whatever happens, outside powers should stay the fuck out and let the Libyans handle this. Yes, that includes the West. That also includes any of Libya's neighbours hoping to sway the final result in their favour.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#11152: Mar 6th 2012 at 5:35:38 PM

That sounds like a tricky policy to legislate. Let alone enforce.

I think the US is pretty much done, though.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11153: Mar 6th 2012 at 5:57:26 PM

Our role now is likely going to be limited to economic advisors. The French, British and Egyptians are going to have a much larger involvement than us. Which is good, they cant do this by themselves...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#11154: Mar 7th 2012 at 5:26:09 AM

The East Libya faction isn't actually seeking a full split, though; just federalism-style "semi-autonomy" regarding internal affairs and self-government.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#11155: Mar 7th 2012 at 7:12:49 AM

Yeah, but Tripolitania will oppose (and maybe fight) even that.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11156: Mar 7th 2012 at 9:54:43 AM

Democracy is messy. The US went through the same growing pains. They'll work it out.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#11157: Mar 7th 2012 at 10:40:02 AM

Exactly.

Tripolitania is too busy fighting itself to lead a successful fight against the far more unified Cyrenaicans. It's in their better interest to work things out, and its also in their better interest to federate the state. The three constituent parts are too different from each other to govern as a unitary state (unless you are, of course, Gaddafi and use tribal intrigue and force to accomplish the goals).

If they fight, that WOULD push Cyrenaica to split rather than afford itself internal governance powers. Considering the NTC can barely get anything done as is, Jalil should be thanking them.

Alas, he has not: [1]

Force? Really? Did you not learn from Gaddafi Mr. Chairman?

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#11158: Mar 7th 2012 at 11:00:41 AM

The call underlines the continuing fragmentation of a country where the central government has been struggling to exert control, four months after the official end of the revolution. The NTC has been the target of sporadic protests nationally over its failure to hold meetings in public or reveal the destination of the country's booming oil revenues.
Doesn't it always fucking come back to this. Who's buying their oil?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#11159: Mar 7th 2012 at 11:54:06 AM

Europe, mostly. It helps that they're so close, geographically speaking.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Sarissofoi Since: Dec, 1969
#11160: Mar 7th 2012 at 1:07:55 PM

I bet that Cyraneica have Saudi and Katar support. NTC have French support(were made by France) but now it cant control anything. Especially after tripoli brigade go fighting on syrian soil. So it is possible that monarchy will reapear in Cyranaica.

TheGDude from Fresno, CA Since: Jul, 2010
#11161: Mar 7th 2012 at 1:18:35 PM

NTC have French support(were made by France)

LOL WUT?!

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#11162: Mar 7th 2012 at 1:21:17 PM

Uh, no, the NTC were made by Libyans, and got a useful boost from the UK and France as key international allies. Bear in mind though that those two countries had made good progress in restoring strong relations with Gaddafi in the last decade or so, and didn't support the rebels lightly. The rebels earned our trust, support and help.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#11163: Mar 7th 2012 at 4:24:23 PM

NTC have French support(were made by France)

This is a very grave insult on the NTC. The NTC was formed by the leaders of the largest individual factions of opposition to Gaddafi's regime, and after most regional organisations had joined, they wrote up a plan that the rest would have to sign to get to join. The NTC is currently the primary representative of all of Libya. To say that they were made by the French would be no less offensive and wrong than to say that Gandhi's opposition to Britain was made by Russia or that Egypt's opposition to Mubarak was made by Sweden.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#11164: Mar 7th 2012 at 4:43:27 PM

You guys do know that this poster's statement sounds suspiciously similar to the Flame Baits that were thrown around by various trolls that hit this thread in the past, right?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#11165: Mar 7th 2012 at 8:51:47 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17295748

I'd say the deputy oil minister is a pretty high defection considering how Syria makes a lot of its money.

Anyone else hoping this is the first of many defections?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11167: Mar 8th 2012 at 7:45:39 AM

"...Force? Really? Did you not learn from Gaddafi Mr. Chairman?"

How about Abraham Lincoln?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#11168: Mar 8th 2012 at 3:00:49 PM

Oil isn't a major revenue earner of Syria's. It's an important defection, but not as important as it would be in, say, Iraq.

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#11169: Mar 8th 2012 at 4:22:21 PM

Tonight's story on the PBS News Hour mentioned that some more military officers have also defected recently.

Speaking of which, that also included an interview with this one guy (Danny something, I don't remember his name) who's been filming the devastation in places like Homs and its effect on civilians.

I'll post a link to it in a bit, when it gets posted online. TL;DR version of what he's saying: Yes, the Syrian people are desperate.

edited 8th Mar '12 4:23:12 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#11170: Mar 8th 2012 at 6:26:51 PM

How about Abraham Lincoln?

Right, because that's applicable here.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11171: Mar 8th 2012 at 7:22:24 PM

You think it isnt?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#11172: Mar 8th 2012 at 10:25:26 PM

That analogy makes no sense. "Because Lincoln."

If we use that scenario, al-Assad is Lincoln.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11173: Mar 9th 2012 at 10:37:18 AM

I dunno. It's a fledgling democracy threatened by the separation of one of it's key regions. For Libyan democracy to survive, it probably has to maintain it's territorial integrity.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#11174: Mar 9th 2012 at 10:40:26 AM

There's no separation. It's about internal autonomy, federalization. What Tripolitania wants is to force centralism upon Cyrenaica. Yeah, I'm rather more sympathetic with the Cyrenaicans on this issue.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11175: Mar 9th 2012 at 10:47:05 AM

Time will tell. Meanwhile, 3 army officers have defected over to Turkey, and protests continue in many cities.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.

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