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SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#4201: Apr 15th 2011 at 1:44:04 PM

How does a people who have already risen up, rise up again, and how do they fight a Eurofighter Typhoon?

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#4202: Apr 15th 2011 at 2:41:13 PM

Fighting and dying immediately still counts as fighting, right?

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#4203: Apr 15th 2011 at 3:08:39 PM

Can someone tell me whats all this about Cluster Munitions? I think I know what they do, but they were banned under geneva?

And why are people saying we should have them?

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#4204: Apr 15th 2011 at 3:24:12 PM

No, not banned under Geneva.

They're banned for use by countries that ratify the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which is fairly recent. But if your country doesn't ratify the Convention, then there's nothing stopping them from using them. 56 nations have ratified it.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#4205: Apr 15th 2011 at 3:26:38 PM

^^ Cluster munitions part of Warfare 101.

A cluster munition is any device that upon first detonation scatters secondary munitions over an area. Think bombs that blow up into more bombs for the concept.

Cluster munitions themselves allow greater firepower potential for either less weight or greater ammunition capacity on certain platforms like aircraft. (8 cluster bombs is more effective firepower than 8 "blockbuster" conventional gravity bombs) The primary drawback is they are not precise in the sense of 1 bomb kills 1 tank and leaves the surrounding area intact.

The Hague Convention of 1899 and the Geneva Convention of 1948 do not have jurisdiction over cluster munitions of any type. Cluster mines (air droppable minefields basically) are covered by the Land Mine Treaty in the UN. Most of the major powers (US Russia China) didn't sign on to that. Cluster munitions otherwise are covered by a separate treaty which again most of the major powers didn't sign on to.

edited 15th Apr '11 3:28:29 PM by MajorTom

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#4206: Apr 15th 2011 at 3:37:44 PM

They're not banned under Geneva, but they're banned under several other treaties, which most democratic countries apparently, mostly countries that don't have them have signed.

A cluster bomb is basically a big bomb that you launch from the ground or, more commonly, from a jet (CAS, bomber, or MRF) that contains loads and loads of smaller explosive devices.

When the bomb approaches the target, it spreads the smaller bombs around before exploding itself. So basically, it covers a large area in a series small-ish explosions that cover it completely.

The mechanism by which the smaller bombs - let's call them the payload - is distributed varies. The payload itself also varies, and is not always even explosive. A cluster bomb may contain propaganda leaflets, bio- or chemical weapons or anything you want to cover an area with, but usually it's bombs.

A cluster bomb is an extremely imprecise weapon for situations where precision really matters. The way it's meant to be used - dropping the ordinance on a road, railway, radar station, command hub, troop formation, etc - it's precise enough, and getting stuff around the main target destroyed is a bonus. In urban or other areas filled with civilians, it's a horrible weapon.

Another problem is that sometimes, some of the smaller bombs don't explode until much later, so there's a high chance of killing civilians years after the weapon was launched.

De-railing a bit to tell you something interesting: during the Winter War (and the following Continuation War), the USSR used primitive cluster bombs against Finland. This was of course omitted from Soviet reports (propaganda); instead, the Soviet press said that the planes were dropping food aid to the poor Finns suffering from a Fascist regime until the Soviets come 'round to liberate us. So, we started calling the cluster bombs "Molotov's breadbaskets" 'cause that's what our humour is like. (For those who don't know, Molotov was the Foreign Minister of the USSR.)

We came up with a method of blowing up Russian tanks: fill a bottle with strong alcohol, tar, and some other substances, put a burning rag in the bottle's mouth and throw it at the enemy tank so that the mixture inside will ignite and spill burning liquid through the tank's cooling grills and ignite the fuel, ammunition and other explosive targets inside the tank. We called it the "Molotov's cocktail", so that we'd have "a drink to go with the food".

edited 15th Apr '11 3:40:54 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TheChubbyDestroyer OOPS from Stage 1 Underground Since: Oct, 2010
OOPS
#4207: Apr 15th 2011 at 4:04:08 PM

Thank you for the trivia

I think I did something last night...
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#4208: Apr 15th 2011 at 4:18:08 PM

The point is G man had them likely for the purpose of carpeting civilian towns in explosives to kill everything. The munitions can be dispensed by both Artillery rounds and Rocket Artillery. A good thing they target Gmans artillery and mess up his supply lines every chance they get.

Who watches the watchmen?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#4209: Apr 15th 2011 at 4:25:24 PM

We've got a trope for Cluster Bombs if you like.

The mechanism by which the smaller bombs - let's call them the payload - is distributed varies.

The proper word is "sub munition".

Anyway, cluster bombs are used against spread out targets (usually tanks and vehicle convoys) because of their large foot print. They're only illegal to use if you're A)one of the countries that signed the treaty or B) stuffing them with bio/chem/radiological weapons or C) using them on civilians (since that's illegal anyway).

edited 15th Apr '11 4:27:26 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#4210: Apr 15th 2011 at 4:26:57 PM

payload works too.

So any recent news on the various fronts? I saw something yesterday about a new Syrian government.

Who watches the watchmen?
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#4211: Apr 15th 2011 at 4:27:06 PM

[up][up][up][up]I already mentioned this on another thread, but in case I'm giving you the impression that we actually invented the Molotov's cocktail, no-one's sure if we did, or if we simply copied it. We weren't the first to use it, but it's a really simple weapon, and since Finland has a tradition of improvising weapons, it's possible that we came up with independently. The weapon's name certainly is a Finnish invention.

For an example of our improvised tactics, from Wikipedia:

The Finns learned that at close range, tanks could be dealt with in many ways; for example, logs and crowbars jammed into the bogie wheels would often immobilise a tank.

edited 15th Apr '11 4:27:44 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#4212: Apr 15th 2011 at 4:43:30 PM

I am going to go ahead and start a separate thread for Finns/Improvised warfare in WWII. It is interesting enough.

Speaking of improvised warfare how are the folks in Misrata holding out?

edited 15th Apr '11 5:25:58 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
MayuZane I made my own avatar from SPACE Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
I made my own avatar
#4213: Apr 15th 2011 at 5:49:18 PM

[up]The rebels in Misrata can survive as long as they have the sea open to them. While Gaddafi forces have attacked the port with artillery, aid ships won't stop coming unless Gaddafi's troops have taken control of the port. As long as ships continue to dock, they'll be providing food, water, medical supplies and other necessities. Ships from Benghazi are bringing weapons too.

The port has been blocked off with numerous obstacles, from metal shipping containers filled with sand to piles of junk, allowing only infantry to get through, so at least no tanks can enter. Gaddafi troops have tried to use bulldozers to get past the blockades, but in every instance the driver would be shot dead and the machine destroyed by RPG fire.

Despite all this, the rebels are still struggling as Gaddafi's forces continue to escalate their attacks.

Also, news:

Al Jazeera Arabic reports that the rebels have taken control of east Brega, but are still trying to fend off attacks from the rear as Gaddafi forces try to outflank them.

Al Jazeera English meanwhile says that a small British military team is on the ground in Libya advising rebels on how to organize their command structure.

In Benghazi, a fire broke out at the Ouzu hotel, where many journalists were staying. While at first people thought it was caused by an explosion, it was actually caused by an electrical fault. Despite some initial bumbling, local firefighters were able to put out the fire relatively quickly.

When the fire first happened, a lot of people in Benghazi thought Gaddafi had sent a suicide bomber to kill journalists. Thankfully that wasn't the case.

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BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#4214: Apr 15th 2011 at 6:09:02 PM

I suspect that if Gaddafi's troops somehow manage to take the port in Misrata, the problem will be taken care of by foreign countries.

Misrata will possibly be supplied by air, which has in the past (as in, in other conflicts) been effective.

Another option available to foreign powers would be to place small but effective groups of specialists in aid ships and then use those groups to make sure that the aid gets through - in other words, re-take the port. I would imagine that it wouldn't be extremely difficult, as the troops would have air support, including helicopter gunships with sufficient additional air power (Multi-Role Fighters in Close Air Support capacity) to minimise risk from ground forces (anti-air missiles) to the helicopters.

As the military instructors from Britain are apparently not in breach of the resolution's ban on foreign ground forces, the special forces involved in re-taking the port of Misrata could be similarly justified - "we're making sure that medical supplies reach the patients who are in mortal danger instead of Gaddafi's troops who might just destroy them". The best part is, they wouldn't be lying.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#4215: Apr 15th 2011 at 6:12:46 PM

Here's a better idea, an amphibious landing of NATO ground troops either in Misrata or Tripoli. Spare the world the embarrassment of "specialists".

Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#4216: Apr 15th 2011 at 6:13:51 PM

Explain, please.

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#4217: Apr 15th 2011 at 6:29:05 PM

An outright invasion is not on the table, because it's not mandated by the resolution and because it would probably help organisations like al-Qaida more than the death of every single person in Libya would.

Fortunately, the US, UK and France seem to be lobbying to get a new resolution, one that expands the mandate to include various forms of support for the revolution and other actions to get rid of Gaddafi (though they still probably wont' ask for or get permission to invade with a major force.)

But even with the current mandate, it's pretty likely that Gaddafi will fall within a couple of months. This battle is clearly not lost. It's very unfortunate that Misrata is paying such a heavy prise for Libya's liberty, but they aren't being forgotten, and neither the rebels nor NATO is going to let the city fall completely.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
MayuZane I made my own avatar from SPACE Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
I made my own avatar
#4218: Apr 15th 2011 at 8:53:36 PM

Al-Manara media reports that the TNC's own TV channel is broadcasting over Gaddafi's State TV channel on Nilesat, thanks to a group of engineers in Benghazi.

No idea if the people in Tripoli can see it, according to several folks the channel's been blacked out, though jamming the broadcast is already one hell of a feat. Gaddafi media still has 4 other channels remaining, and they're not making any mention of the missing channel.

Meanwhile, The Telegraph confirms that Gaddafi is using schoolboy conscripts to fight in Misrata.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:57:59 PM by MayuZane

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Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#4219: Apr 15th 2011 at 10:44:20 PM

Alhurra Tv live from Misratah.

Just heard a man pleading with increasing desperation for NATO assistance, until I had to switch it off. I couldn't bear to listen after a while.

edited 15th Apr '11 11:02:29 PM by Colonial1.1

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#4220: Apr 15th 2011 at 11:18:25 PM

Listen for as much as you can stand.

Here's a transcript in English.

edited 15th Apr '11 11:48:56 PM by Colonial1.1

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#4221: Apr 16th 2011 at 12:50:16 AM

And then I saw the second part.

edited 16th Apr '11 12:50:43 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#4222: Apr 16th 2011 at 1:07:47 AM

So when does Ghadaffi start strapping bombs to orphan puppies?

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#4223: Apr 16th 2011 at 2:18:04 AM

Benghazi is jamming the regime's TV channel? cool HELL YEAH! Another step in re-inciting open revolts in the capital!

[up]That's assuming that there any puppies left in Tripoli. And did you hear of the kitten that was blinded by an exploding shell? I think it was mentioned several pages ago. sad Poor kitty!

edited 16th Apr '11 2:18:32 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#4224: Apr 16th 2011 at 6:12:22 AM

Is there some reason why NATO is inactive around Misratah? (Is it Misrata or Misratah?)

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
MayuZane I made my own avatar from SPACE Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
I made my own avatar
#4225: Apr 16th 2011 at 6:23:57 AM

[up] Nobody is sure. NATO claims it's because Gaddafi is using human shields and hiding tanks near civilian areas. There is speculation that Turkey is holding them back.

Journalist Karl Stagno-Navarra reports: the Boat that entered Tunisia from Libya had 18 people which included 3 aviators, 1 Airforce Colonel, 1 Police Colonel and defecting government employees.

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