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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#28151: Oct 8th 2018 at 7:23:00 AM

Assad didn't have a reputation for directing terrorist attacks against Western targets. Europe in particular wanted Gaddafi dead for decades before they saw an opening.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Oct 8th 2018 at 11:22:31 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#28152: Oct 8th 2018 at 3:41:42 PM

[up][up][up]He started before, but Gaddafi did not achieve his "reconciliation" until he gave up his nuclear program, which was after the fall of Saddam.

And easier to reconcile? You make it sound like all of this happened only last week, even though Assad has long since eclipsed Gaddafi in terms of his crimes, including everything in the civil war and the knock-on effects of the refugee crisis that have affected Europe directly.

[up][up][up][up]If it hits Yemen, I officially dub them the Charlie Brown of the middle east.

Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28153: Oct 9th 2018 at 3:52:43 AM

[up]Not like refuge crisis was Assad's intention. I don't think the West is so hypocritical as to blame him for it, but they could always "surprise" in this regard. And I did not say the reconciliation would be done in a year. About his crimes to his own people - I don't think they really would care. What can prevent reconciliation is his new closer relatonship with Iran and Russia, not his conduct in the civil war itself.

Edited by Smeagol17 on Oct 9th 2018 at 1:52:31 PM

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#28154: Oct 9th 2018 at 10:08:25 AM

[up] Assad and his crownies have done everything in their power to force parts of the population they deemed as "illoyal" to leave the country, and they also tried to make it as difficult as possible for them to return.

It might not have been his intention to cause a refugee crisis in Europe, but we can certainly blame him for it.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#28155: Oct 9th 2018 at 10:14:20 AM

Assad is responsible for starting the civil war, and commands what is by far the most brutal faction of combatants in said war. He is primarily responsible for the Syrian refugee crisis, end of story.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28156: Oct 9th 2018 at 1:13:15 PM

[up], [up][up] Most brutal? Even the West puts ISIS there. And responsible - yeah, if he was more competent, the war would not have started or would have been over in a year. But to blame him for that? It would be very hypocritical for the Western powers, as they backed his enemies from day one. For the Syrians loyal to his goverment and his foreign allies, on the other hand...

Edited by Smeagol17 on Oct 9th 2018 at 11:16:04 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#28157: Oct 9th 2018 at 1:18:11 PM

[up] I’d suggest you stop getting your talking points from RT.

They should have sent a poet.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#28158: Oct 9th 2018 at 1:19:21 PM

Assad and his forces have killed more people than all the other factions put together, several times over. The West only started supporting the opposition overtly after Assad's forces got things rolling by massacring peaceful protestors.

Assad had choices; including reforms and resignation. Instead he chose war; everything else (Western, Turkish, Russian, and Iranian intervention, refugees, terrorists groups moving in) largely stems from this choice.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Oct 9th 2018 at 5:23:28 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28159: Oct 9th 2018 at 1:22:20 PM

[up][up]As I live in Moscow, I don't need to watch RT.))

Edited by Smeagol17 on Oct 9th 2018 at 11:22:32 AM

Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28160: Oct 9th 2018 at 1:28:25 PM

[up][up] Of course, but most brutal usually means something else. And as I said, even the West claims ISIS is more brutal (or they would have trouble explaining why they are fighting them and not Assad).

As I said, his incompetence is to blame for the war. But those backing his enemies would not blame him for that, wouldn't they?

Edited by Smeagol17 on Oct 9th 2018 at 11:31:43 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#28161: Oct 9th 2018 at 1:31:58 PM

ISIS try to be more brutal but they’ve generally lacked the means, I’m sure if they had air superiority and chemical weapons they’d have found a way to do more horrifying shit with them, but due to lack of means they’ve been unable to launch chemical weapon attacks or constant barrel bombing campaigns.

Also it’s not incompetence on his part that caused the war, it’s bloodthirsty authoritarianism.

Edited by Silasw on Oct 9th 2018 at 8:33:11 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28162: Oct 9th 2018 at 1:37:58 PM

[up] I mean, brutality is not measured by the number of people killed.

And many bloodthirsty authoritarians manage to avoid civil war. It is incompetence on his part, plain and simple.

Edited by Smeagol17 on Oct 9th 2018 at 11:42:24 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#28163: Oct 9th 2018 at 2:01:10 PM

Bloodthirsty authoritarians tend to have short civil wars/internal confronts, not no conflict, there’s a difference.

Saudi Arabia and Bahrain didn’t avoid having uprisings, they were just better at dealing with them, in part because they were less bloodthirsty and more willing to buy people off.

Assad made the war worse and longer with his incompetence, but he started it by being an authoritarian asshole who would allow no one to question him.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28164: Oct 9th 2018 at 2:17:36 PM

[up] Even democratic countries have "uprisings" like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain ones (large scale protests). Does not change the fact that with competence you can avoid civil war or even large scale protests, if you wish, especially if you are a dictator.

Edited by Smeagol17 on Oct 9th 2018 at 12:18:44 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#28165: Oct 9th 2018 at 2:47:27 PM

It becomes an uprising when the state uses excessive force to quash it, as happened in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, the Saudis were in both instance however smart enough to buy off the people who might have been motivated to push back against the excessive use of force.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#28166: Oct 9th 2018 at 3:03:43 PM

Crossposting from the Eastern European Politics thread, as Saudi Arabia and Turkey are at the core of this,and it has the potential to ruin their diplomatic relationship. If this was brought up before by another user, I apologize.

Jamal Khashoggi, A self-exiled Saudi journalist had vanished under mysterious circumstances in Istanbul. The Government of Saudi Arabia is considered a likely suspect, and its causing diplomatic problems between Saudi Arabia and both Turkey and the US. (Jamal was a staunch critic of the Crown Prince)

BBC News also has an article on it.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Oct 9th 2018 at 3:22:47 AM

Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28167: Oct 9th 2018 at 3:11:42 PM

[up][up] Eh, Assad also made "concessions". And "excessive force" is subjective. In Saudi Arabia no more people died than in Newark riots (of course, even one is too much with competent policing). I think "uprising" versus "large-scale unauthorized protest" is more about the method of protesters and their goal (and the political bias of the describer). Rather the protest can become an uprising if you use "insufficient" force to quash it (of course, better to solve it without "quashing", but if the protest is happening at all, it is not always possible).

Edited by Smeagol17 on Oct 9th 2018 at 1:26:13 PM

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#28168: Oct 9th 2018 at 10:40:26 PM

[up]

What kind of "concessions" do you think he offered.

[up][up]

Incidents like that make me question what kind of person the crown prince of SA really is (if it was indeed murder, it must have been ordered by him personally, or with his blessing). First the Yemen War, than the Bahrain blockade, and now this... .

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#28170: Oct 10th 2018 at 4:03:16 AM

[up] In short, the "concessions" he offered were not worth the name.

Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28171: Oct 10th 2018 at 4:19:13 AM

[up] Not like the Saudis did more. The problem was not the concessions themselves, but different political and economic situation.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#28172: Oct 10th 2018 at 4:40:21 AM

The Saudis and Bahrainis did an awful lot of extra public spending to keep people in line, they pared a brutal crackdown with throwing money at the problem.

You’re right that the circumstances were different but Assad still caused the civil war with his authoritarianism.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28173: Oct 10th 2018 at 10:03:01 AM

[up] They also had more money. But as I said, incompetence. Sadly common there.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#28174: Oct 13th 2018 at 6:35:56 AM

[up]Incompetence on Assad's part (which he is) doesn't absolve his criminal behavior. No one absolves the Bahrainis or Saudis either, it's just there isn't much futher news about Bahrain while Saudia gets criticized all the time for its brutality (see Khashoggi or Yemen).

And incompetence aside, world powers gave Assad plenty of chances (before the Ghouta chemical attacks anyway) to save face and exit the office. Hell, even Russia was on board for that, since they could have met their strategic objectives by just having someone different at the head of the regime. Iranian encouragement and his own stubborn pride prevented that though.

Finally, on the subject of Daesh....Assad had an indirect (but deliberate) hand in its creation (along with all the other jihadi groups) when he released them from prison.

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#28175: Oct 13th 2018 at 9:12:14 PM

[up] Assad also allowed China to deploy a contingent of special forces troops within his borders, something which likely must have pissed Putin off real good since Syria has been considered a reliable Russian client for decades since the start of the Cold War. I can't help but think that he must believe that the Iranian and Chinese presences serve as insurance plans against a Russian-plotted coup against him.


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