TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

When did World War II Start? [Your Opinion]

Go To

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#26: Jan 25th 2011 at 10:27:30 AM

And we know how that turned out...

So, could the Pacific side ofthe conflict been avoided by having them get their butts kicked, during the '05 conflict...? Suppose a lot of the theories and opinions here woudl make good foundations for alt-history fiction.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
saladofstones :V from Happy Place Since: Jan, 2011
:V
#27: Jan 25th 2011 at 10:30:21 AM

Midway was blind luck for the United States, and miscommunication ended up saving us. If you look at all the things that just happened to come together at that moment, its pretty amazing. Granted we did know that they were coming there, which is a plus, but it still wasn't good odds.

Kind of like Leyte gulf. We should have lost there, massive, but a couple of poor maneuvers by the Japanese fleet, a basic miscommunication (the Japanese reported that the escort destroyers and carriers were fleet destroyers and carriers, and the Japanese commander's reluctance to fully commit in the event of the main fleet arriving (which he thought elements of that fleet were already attacking him). If we would have lost Leyte Gulf, our invasion would have been crippled.

edited 25th Jan '11 10:30:50 AM by saladofstones

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.
RalphCrown Short Hair from Next Door to Nowhere Since: Oct, 2010
Short Hair
#28: Jan 25th 2011 at 10:43:25 AM

The war started when the first soldier caveman bashed someone from another tribe in the head. It never stops, it just ebbs and flows.

Under World. It rocks!
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#29: Jan 25th 2011 at 10:44:56 AM

*imagines Hitler singing We Didn't Start the Fire*

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#30: Jan 25th 2011 at 11:08:06 AM

Resisting urge to quote Fallout...

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#31: Jan 25th 2011 at 11:18:09 AM

Evidently the Japanese took a massive loss, in kind, during World War II against the Russians which prompted them to hope for another decisive victory against the US at Midway.

The Russo-Japanese border conflict in Manchuria was entirely on land. The Russians of the World War eras had a pathetic navy in the wake of the 1905 Russo Japanese War. How pathetic was it? Well they basically didn't build anything new navy wise the entire war. They were running on scrapworthy remnants of the Imperial Russian Navy from the days of the czar. They built very very very few ships during the war.

On land the BT fast tank series proved itself a much better anti-tank platform than the Japanese light tanks and Type 97 Chi-Ha mediums. (A lesson that would repeat itself however briefly in August 1945 only substitute T-34s and T-34-85s instead of BT fast tanks.)

The Manchurian border conflict was strategically inconclusive as far as Japanese war efforts were concerned. All it did was make them take a hard look at potentially upgrading their tanks. (Which thought towards upgrading got progressively more and more serious as tank battles against the US proved largely one-sided in favor of the easily mass-producible-yet-superior-in-every-way-to-their-shit M4 Shermans)

The Battle of Midway was an attempt to force a decisive end to the naval battles before the US Navy could fully recover in the wake of Pearl Harbor. (The USN was not back up to strength until the Naval Battle Of Guadalcanal several months later.) If they could take the Midway Islands, they would have an airbase and small ship fueling station within reach of both Pearl Harbor and Dutch Harbor in the Aleutians. If Midway fell and the Japanese used it as a fueling and repair station for ships and aircraft, the USN would be hard pressed to repel a naval offensive against Hawaii or Dutch Harbor given their diminished ship strength at the time.

edited 25th Jan '11 11:18:26 AM by MajorTom

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#32: Jan 25th 2011 at 1:59:59 PM

[up]

@ Major Tom: To add to the above, the Soviet Navy was pathetic enough for the Royal Navy to loan old WW 1-era Battleships to late in the war as (presumeably) front-line vessels.

And it terms of Japanese tanks...useless is an understatement. In the British side of things, the M3 Grant/Lee and Matilda were enough (cascaded down from North Africa) to fight against the Japanese tanks in Burma and New Guinea.

edited 25th Jan '11 2:04:10 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
BalloonFleet MASTER-DEBATER from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jun, 2010
MASTER-DEBATER
#33: Jan 25th 2011 at 3:13:20 PM

On paper it was one war because Germany and Japan were allied, but in practice, I think of it as two separate wars that America happened to be involved in both of.

Well the British and Soviet Union fought against both the Japanese and the Germans.....(when the French lklos indochina the japanese more of a way demanded the french let the japanese move in, and this was vichy france that surrendered)

On land the BT fast tank series proved itself a much better anti-tank platform than the Japanese light tanks and Type 97 Chi-Ha mediums. (A lesson that would repeat itself however briefly in August 1945 only substitute T-34s and T-34-85s instead of BT fast tanks.)

And it terms of Japanese tanks...useless is an understatement. In the British side of things, the M3 Grant/Lee and Matilda were enough (cascaded down from North Africa) to fight against the Japanese tanks in Burma and New Guinea.

Think that is also part of why the Japanese chose to invade south. The ROC military did not have as many tanks AFAIK (someone correct me plz), and the jungle war in Malaya did not rely as heavily on tanks.

edited 25th Jan '11 3:45:28 PM by BalloonFleet

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!
BalloonFleet MASTER-DEBATER from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jun, 2010
MASTER-DEBATER
#34: Jan 25th 2011 at 3:37:29 PM

There were numerous Invasion Scares, with one in the 1860's leading to the construction of the Palmerston Forts, and of course Invasion Fiction. The British might have been the top power, but we were paranoid.

Invasion Fiction is not discredited, see Red Dawn. It metamorphed

France cleansed Alsace-Lorrained? Really? Please define cleanse for me and/or give me more informations about these events because I doubt it happened.

Im too lazy to post a source or look for one, but after the Franco-Prussian War Germany occupied Alsace-Lorraine, added it formally to the recently formed German Empire, and had Germans immigrate to that place. Post-WWI, Versailles Treaty gave Alsace-Lorraine back to France. The French government kicked out the Germans who immigrated there since 1871, those before then were allowed to stay.

Reading into French-German history from the mid-1800s to WW 2, holy shit they were dickish to each other.....

And I have always seen it as two separate wars. While WWI directly lead into WWII (because it gave Hitler the means to rise to power), the twenty-year armistice, while an interesting theory just doesn't hold up.

Given a lot of the war seemed to have been Fascism and Expansionism, vs rightist "democracy", anarchism, communism and stalinism [yes a difference] it seems to fit in/

If the '05 conflict had turned out not as overwhelmingly one-sided in favor of the Japanese, I can only assume that they would not have sought to expand as quickly as they tried to.

The Imperial Japanese basically picked on countries when they were divided and weakened - e.g. the Japanese attacked mainland China partially as they didn't want to deal with a strong nationalist China that would be less willing to let the Japanese extort...I mean "influence" good deals out of the Chinese. Manchuria was a 'cake walk' as an example, and they were very effective against the British - and they KNEW that.

Evidently the Japanese took a massive loss, in kind, during World War II against the Russians which prompted them to hope for another decisive victory against the US at Midway.

Khalkin Gol wasn't I'd say a 'massive loss'.....more of 'too hard for the Japanese and they decided to conquer further south rather than deal with the USSR.....

So, could the Pacific side ofthe conflict been avoided by having them get their butts kicked, during the '05 conflict...? Suppose a lot of the theories and opinions here woudl make good foundations for alt-history fiction.

The Pacific Side could've been avoided by the countries surrendering to GLORIOUS NIPPON so they didnt have to pwn everyone so thoroughly xD

just kidding....but honestly, the civilian diet could have not let the militarist take over and do so willingly (they could have kept on resisting the control clique even if it resulted in continual gekofujo...which the control clique could have dealt with....then again the militarists probably wouldve pulled a coup on them in the future anyway)

Also, the US could've avoided getting involved by not cutting off Japanese oil supplies as the US did - prompting the Japanese to invade Malaya and Singapore + The Dutch East Indies (Indonesia)

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#35: Jan 25th 2011 at 4:16:12 PM

Yes, there is some thought that we more or less pushed them into open conflict with us, anyway.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
saladofstones :V from Happy Place Since: Jan, 2011
:V
#36: Jan 25th 2011 at 4:19:09 PM

While we did, the Japanese terms, IIRC, was that we surrender assets in Asia to them. I don't see how it was our fault when they created the scenario that ultimately led to them feeling that they needed to declare war to maintain their interests.

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#37: Jan 25th 2011 at 4:24:03 PM

I think Zhukov kicking the Japanese army's teeth in at Khalkhin Gol is being a little understated in its importance here. A guarantee that Japan would not attack Soviet territory again was a decisive factor in allowing a whole load of troops in the east to be transferred west to be used against the Wehrmacht.

edited 25th Jan '11 4:29:06 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
BalloonFleet MASTER-DEBATER from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jun, 2010
MASTER-DEBATER
#38: Jan 25th 2011 at 5:30:42 PM

While we did, the Japanese terms, IIRC, was that we surrender assets in Asia to them. I don't see how it was our fault when they created the scenario that ultimately led to them feeling that they needed to declare war to maintain their interests.

It was just 'reconnect the oil lines you disconnected us from when we persuaded Vichy France to let us base troops in French Indochina'. The US posted those 'four principles' Hull wanted which was things that were blatantly unallowed for the Japanese.......like withdraw from Manchuko IIRC (or it was withdraw TO Manchuko and stop fighting Kai-Shek's forces)....among the withdrawal from Indochina. Whatever it was, it was a LOT and the Japanese didnt like being intimidate or being forced into things, given how they saw Qing China sliced up & had trade forced on them......

A guarantee that Japan would not attack Soviet territory again was a decisive factor in allowing a whole load of troops in the east to be transferred west to be used against the Wehrmacht.

I forgot about that too, it was useful as those new troops kept the Axis from conquering Moscow, even if they got up to Khimki (inner suburb of Moscow) & could see the Kremlin and Cathedral from their front lines.

EDIT: That and Zhukov being transferred to the front against the European Axis, as he was well....a more competent officer and survived the purges by being in eastern Siberia...(yes I know the Soviet Army was promoting decently competent officers by that time but Zhukov and Konev were well.......I guess better (or i exxagerate someone correct me if so)

edited 25th Jan '11 5:39:55 PM by BalloonFleet

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!
Shichibukai Permanently Banned from Banland Since: Oct, 2011
Permanently Banned
#39: Jan 25th 2011 at 5:30:48 PM

Lunatic answer: It started in 33 AD, with the crucifixion of Jesus which produced hatred for Jews inevitably culminating in Hitler.

Alternative answer: World War II started with the attack on Pearl Harbour. Without the involvement of all the Great Powers it was not actually a world war.

More sensible answer: It's hard to give a definitive answer. It was not inevitable that the treaty of Versailles would rile up so many Germans. It was just an element of propaganda, not all Germans felt a deep-seated desire for revenge and only a minority voted for the NSDAP but the ruling classes thought they could control Hitler. Certainly, Hindenburg opened the floodgates when he appointed Hitler as Chancellor, but this was not a matter of inevitability either. It was a turning point, rather than an outcome.

I would instead look to underlying themes of the inter-war period. Massive ideological clashes. Complacent empires which had been weakened by World War I. The rise of Fascism and also Communism, rival ways in which the world could be run which threatened the existing Liberal order.

edited 25th Jan '11 5:35:57 PM by Shichibukai

Requiem ~ September 2010 - October 2011 [Banned 4 Life]
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#40: Jan 25th 2011 at 5:36:51 PM

When? When Napoleon lost at Leipzig.

Seriously. Because War of the Sixth Coalition -> Congress of Vienna -> 1848 -> German Unification -> Austria and Russia trolling the Ottoman Empire leading to Balkan instability -> A mad Kaiser with a fetish for the good old days of Prussia, leading to the Naval buildup -> World War, Part I -> Shitty Treaty leading to a 20 year armistice -> World War, Part II.

edited 25th Jan '11 5:38:54 PM by Kinkajou

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#41: Jan 25th 2011 at 5:37:52 PM

Invasion Fiction is not discredited, see Red Dawn. It metamorphed

Or see Code Geass or Red Storm Rising or World In Conflict. The difference is that now it's more of an excuse for military fiction than a manifestation of real fears. (OK, Red Dawn represented real fears, but Invasion Fiction post-1991 has been free of serious geopolitical worries.)

edited 25th Jan '11 5:41:05 PM by silver2195

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
saladofstones :V from Happy Place Since: Jan, 2011
:V
#42: Jan 25th 2011 at 5:57:32 PM

Red Dawn didn't really represent real fears, not at is it presented itself at least. Most invasion fiction became more alternate-reality or alternate-history than based on real fears.

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.
JackMackerel from SOME OBSCURE MEDIA Since: Jul, 2010
#43: Jan 25th 2011 at 6:10:44 PM

Relevant:

Also, I'd say when France started fucking over Germany with the Treaty of Versailles.

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
Shichibukai Permanently Banned from Banland Since: Oct, 2011
Permanently Banned
#44: Jan 25th 2011 at 6:24:44 PM

[up] The Ruhr Crisis caused much more hostility and discontentment than the treaty itself. But it wasn't a direct cause by any means. Just one of several factors which weren't necessarily related, but cumulative in German consciousness.

Nice video.

edited 25th Jan '11 6:25:46 PM by Shichibukai

Requiem ~ September 2010 - October 2011 [Banned 4 Life]
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#45: Jan 25th 2011 at 6:29:25 PM

Wait, I think it's all because of the split of the Carolingian Empire.

West Francia and East Francia have been rivals since then.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#46: Jan 28th 2011 at 4:13:30 PM

Holy shit, it started when Poland was invaded, the date everyone uses. That was the first time Hitler faced substantial resistance (thoug not effective.) The Japanese occupation of various places in Asia was foreplay. There was no real fighting outside China until Semptember 1.

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#47: Jan 28th 2011 at 4:41:13 PM

I would break it up by Theatre. European and then Asian.

or we could break it down by power. When each power rolled into open warfare in their respective areas. Take your pick. I would say the cause of the World War II stems back the Various struggles for power in Europe between all the powers.

Who watches the watchmen?
BalloonFleet MASTER-DEBATER from Chicago, IL, USA Since: Jun, 2010
MASTER-DEBATER
#48: Jan 28th 2011 at 6:12:41 PM

The Japanese occupation of various places in Asia was foreplay. There was no real fighting outside China until Semptember 1.

The naming trend of the "RAPE of Nanking" makes clear it's not foreplay lol, it's J-J-J-JAMING IT INTO MAINLAND CHINA [lol]

Marco Polo was a third party getting Japan hard, If You Know What I Mean

EDIT:

There was no real fighting outside China until Semptember 1.

Ethiopia (Abbysinia) and Italy, and the Spanish Civil War shows otherwise.

edited 28th Jan '11 6:14:14 PM by BalloonFleet

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010
#49: Jan 28th 2011 at 6:25:38 PM

I agree with Major Tom.

The Allies made the mistake of pressing Germany too hard after they won in the First World War. What did happen was that every nationalistic German would be looking for a chance to fight back, though subconsciously. All it takes is a severe depression and a charismatic leader to whip that subconsciousness resistance into action. And the rest was history.

Also, I tend to examine Japan on a different context than the rest of Europe when it comes to WWII. In all honesty, had Japan not attacked the US of A, most of the Allies would still be considering Japan's deal in China none of their business, save for raising eyebrows at the likes of the Rape of Nanjing and perhaps sending aid to Nationalist China.

Support Taleworlds!
JackMackerel from SOME OBSCURE MEDIA Since: Jul, 2010
#50: Jan 28th 2011 at 6:27:52 PM

The naming trend of the "RAPE of Nanking" makes clear it's not foreplay lol, it's J-J-J-JAMING IT INTO MAINLAND CHINA [lol]

You are a terrible person for that pun. >:|

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.

Total posts: 77
Top