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Too General of a Name: Nosebleed

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#51: Jan 24th 2011 at 2:44:50 PM

[up][up] They do in the fan fiction at least. The first Google result may have stolen it's examples from us. That happens sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's actually used like that in the fandom. I've never actually seen it called a psychic nosebleed in any of the fan fic. Just "He got a nosebleed." and you're expected to know what that means. I saw it all the time when I used to read X-Man fanfiction.

I tried looking at google, but all I'm finding are actual medical stuff on nosebleeds. >_<

edited 24th Jan '11 2:47:29 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#52: Jan 24th 2011 at 2:56:06 PM

[up][up] And I said, thaat the fact that we happened to make dozens of punny related pages about shipping, is irrelevant to the analogy. If you say that, you imply that we would rename shipping, if it wouldn't be that uncomfortable. But that's not true, the page on it's own is more important.

Your own analogy is at least that flawed. None of the Avatar tropes were ever called Avatar, there are just Author Avatar and Digital Avatar.

If we would talk about making a new disambiguation page for the three pre-existing terms, Psychic Nosebleed, Horny Nosebleed, and Deadly Nosebleed, I would agree, but one of these three was just made up on the spot to make room for the disambiguation.

The Maid problem was luckily solved, because we managed to find a term that is even closer to the actual anime fandom term, that is Meido.

edited 24th Jan '11 2:56:44 PM by EternalSeptember

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#53: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:01:12 PM

The problem is that in their home fandoms, both Horny Nosebleed and Psychic Nosebleed are just called Nosebleed. Ignore the third trope for now. Horny Nosebleed got the Nosebleed page first for whatever reason, but you can bet if the initial page was made by the comic book fans then we'd have the Anime fans up in arms.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#54: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:07:53 PM

I recall seeing a Deadly Nosebleed somewhere, but I don't remember where. Fringe, maybe?

Oh, and I am a manga fan. It's just that I rarely encounter the Horny Nosebleed, except in Naruto and every once in awhile in Shōnen.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#55: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:11:30 PM

Not one person will ever say "Horny Nosebleed" period. Its just simply getting a Nosebleed.

Renaming it will just completely kill a VERY well entrenched trope and get a mass of people attempting to link the trope and lead to massive confusion.

At most I could see Perverted Nosebleed and leave Nosebleed as a redirect but still no one will ever use it.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#56: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:12:37 PM

And not one person in comics says Psychic Nosebleed. The problem is that they both have the exact same pre-existing term.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#57: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:13:28 PM

The Psychic Nosebleed page has a moderate Comic Books folder and no Fanfiction folder, so I don't think that this usage is a fandom specific term, more like a casual, natural dictionary definition usage of the word.

Urbandictionary also has an entry for the anime trope, but not for anything else.

If we did influence using these terms, (Nosebleed for anime and Psychic Nosebleed for everything else), it still means something, after thousands of inbounds, we sort of have a responsibility for the popularized meanings.

I mean, even if you are right, I would still prefer if we would base such content-changing page actions on actual misunderstandings, rather than "for the principle of it", and "Fandom political correctness", but I guess it warrants at least a single proposition crowner.

[up][up]

edited 24th Jan '11 3:15:30 PM by EternalSeptember

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#58: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:14:20 PM

Than all one trope with with Type A and Type B. but really Renaming this Entrenched and very healthy trope is a very bad idea.

edited 24th Jan '11 3:15:05 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#59: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:16:24 PM

I recall seeing a Deadly Nosebleed somewhere, but I don't remember where. Fringe, maybe?

That sounds familiar. I think it had something to do with a box emitting some special frequency or something, so I guess that would make another example of nosebleeds with with unusual technological causes.

edited 24th Jan '11 3:17:15 PM by SeanMurrayI

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#60: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:16:35 PM

Psychic Nosebleed is not a pre-existing term. Neither is Deadly Nosebleed. "Psychic" and "Deadly" were tacked on here, but I guarantee that while discussing Lost, people did not call Charlotte's nosebleed a "deadly nosebleed", they simply called it a "nosebleed."

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#61: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:17:01 PM

[up][up] It's not just a fandom thing. It's an in media thing as well. Nosebleed is the term that's used.

[up] They're completely unrelated. Type 1 and Type 2 would just be a mess.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#62: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:18:02 PM

Not one person will ever say "Horny Nosebleed" period. Its just simply getting a Nosebleed" "And not one person in comics says Psychic Nosebleed. The problem is that they both have the exact same pre-existing term."

shimaspawn is right in that everyone describes the event of a bleeding nose as a "nosebleed", but I believe, the anime fandom term has a more inherent association with one specific form of scene.

edited 24th Jan '11 3:19:11 PM by EternalSeptember

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#63: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:19:09 PM

[up] Comic book fans only use it for one thing as well. It's just a different one thing.

edited 24th Jan '11 3:19:42 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#64: Jan 24th 2011 at 3:48:19 PM

In the past years, the wiki managed to get by with having both Nosebleed and PsychicNosebleed. Maybe you are right, and there are people who would have expected the latter under the title of Nosebleed.

But even if that is true, and even more, if there was any Comic Book fan who was confused by this, there is no sign of mass misuse, so even in this worst case, it isn't a problem-causing page by our own standards.

So what would it achieve to confuse thousands of anime fans as well? It's for "Fandom Political Correctness"? Or just "Let my neighbor's cow also die" mentality?

I'm not saying these as an anime fan, or as a CHOPSTICKS member. If there would be a thread about giving any popular, functional page an anime related title, just because it would be a more logical part of a trope family, or something like that, I would oppose that as well, I just don't like baseless renames.

SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#65: Jan 24th 2011 at 5:43:56 PM

Is nosebleeds about just nosebleeds? Would just nosebleeds form a trope? If someone told me or potholed "X Y and Z happens and then Joe gets a nosebleed", would it tell me what trope was happening?

No, no and no.

Was talking about what fandoms call tropes useful?

No. Screw fandoms. This is the site that names tropes. A very very small fraction of tropes were named by fandoms. I've probably named more tropes over time than are on the Fan-speak page.

I'm more inclined to believe that anime fans just say "nosebleed" and then rely on people already knowing what they are talking about due to fandom homogeny rather than a concerted effort to find the name that best makes things clear to everybody.

Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#66: Jan 24th 2011 at 5:51:26 PM

I would be fine with the current trope being housed on Ecchi/Horny Nosebleed, and the current title being a disambiguation page that housed all the nosebleed related tropes.

At the same time, I haven't seen where the current setup is causing any problems, so I'm not terribly invested in changing it.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
Daremo Misanthrope Supreme from Parts Unknown Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
#67: Jan 24th 2011 at 10:58:14 PM

"Could be misunderstood by someone someday, even though it hasn't happened so far." is not reason for a rename.

Looking through the wicks. Skipping anime and obvious arousal tropes.

There are a few more non-anime, non-arousal tropes, but you know what? One unquestionably bad usage(in an entry that looks bad all around), and two questionable usages, bearing in mind that I only hand-checked the ones I thought most likely to be wrong, I'm going to say this is an unusually well used trope.

Feel free to check any other pages and report your findings.

edited 24th Jan '11 11:01:20 PM by Daremo

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
Roxor Only Sane Fox from Land Down Under Since: Jan, 2001
Only Sane Fox
#68: Jan 25th 2011 at 6:55:49 AM

I'm going to side with the disambiguation crowd. Nosebleed alone makes for a good basis for a disambiguation page and if there are multiple tropable causes of one, then using the broadest term for disambiguation makes a lot of sense.

Accidental mistakes are forgivable, intentional ones are not.
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#69: Jan 25th 2011 at 7:02:59 AM

Hold on, why do you think the wicks are an example of everybody understanding it? The wicks are the examples of people who wick it understanding it. I'd only expect misuse if I'd expect people to go around talking about ordinary nosebleeds, which I don't expect because nobody is actually that sad (I hope).

I mean crap, there wasn't a lot of people talking about Jonas Quinn but he still didn't make a good trope name.

EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#70: Jan 25th 2011 at 7:32:51 AM

[up]Trope Renaming Guidelines :

Reasons not to propose a rename:

  • It ain't broke. If the name has good inbound links, it is working. If the name is being accurately used around the wiki to refer to the trope, it is working.
  • If the name is a term already in use in the world, it is working. 'In the world', by the way, also means 'in a specific fandom.'

If the trope is not mistaken for anything else, and it is meaningful at least for the audience that is going to use it anyways, what is the problem that you are trying to fix?

edited 25th Jan '11 7:39:42 AM by EternalSeptember

SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#71: Jan 25th 2011 at 7:36:22 AM

I'd only expect misuse if I'd expect people to go around talking about ordinary nosebleeds, which I don't expect because nobody is actually that sad (I hope).

?????????????

People can, and people do, talk about ordinary nosebleeds on this wiki. That said though, the instances of ordinary nosebleeds being linked to Nosebleed are very uncommon.

edited 25th Jan '11 8:05:37 AM by SeanMurrayI

SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#72: Jan 25th 2011 at 7:46:40 AM

Yeah but nobody's going to think of it for a trope page.

[up][up] Thing is, that guideline got built up around issues with more FORK-ish names. You have some name trying desparately hard to be catchy and uniquely identifiable and a tvtrope original that it seem to make no sense but hey, it's working.

Here we have the inverse. The page is working. The content is something that people who enjoy Japanese content probably have to explain quite a bit but the name is just nothing. It's emptiness and missed opportunity. It's the villain from The Neverending Story.

SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#73: Jan 25th 2011 at 7:56:30 AM

^Well, Nosebleed is a trope page, and all it takes to misuse it is one troper thinking they got it figured out from the name alone without reading the article, and before you know it, you have it appearing on several wicks in the same fashion as on the Beavis And Butthead page.

Luckily, so far, the Beavis And Butthead page looks like the ONLY wick misused in that fashion, and other misuse doesn't tend to be very present so nothing more is really going to come of a repair project here, save for removing one or two wicks.

However, "[B]ut nobody's gonna think of it as a trope page" is a pretty far conclusion to leap towards, especially when somebody already did mistake an ordinary nosebleed for just that.

edited 25th Jan '11 8:53:17 AM by SeanMurrayI

EternalSeptember Since: Sep, 2010
#74: Jan 25th 2011 at 8:23:37 AM

[up][up] This name is how people call these scenes.

Anime fanspeak sites, and glossaries, actually list the trope name "nosebleed", as "that scene that happens when someone has an erection." Discussions also simply refer to these as a "nosebleed".

Maybe based on the dictionary definition, "nosebleed" only means having a bleeding nose, but as a pre-existing trope title, anime viewers already use it as if the rest of the trope would be also implied by the word.

I repeat my earlier analogy: You might say that "boss" or "ship" could mean many things without more explanation, or more elaborate names for them, but if the fandoms understand what they imply, the only reason to change them would be if they would mislead others.

edited 25th Jan '11 8:25:14 AM by EternalSeptember

suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ Since: Oct, 2009
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
#75: Jan 25th 2011 at 10:27:02 AM

In my experience, comic book fans do indeed use the term Psychic Nosebleed (see here, most prominently), and would be fairly unlikely to use the term "Nosebleed" alone without some form of modification.

Jet-a-Reeno!

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